Digital or Vinyl?

[Digital_Man]

It seems to me that whether many of us like it or not cds are going the way of the dinosaur. How soon before they are phased out entirely is hard to say but I noticed that Kmart no longer sells cds(not that they ever had much of a selection but still)so that by itself is not a good sign. Also, most of the chain stores are gone. FYE is still around and so is best buy but most of them are gone. It will probably be a while before we can't at least buy cds online but it seems that they don't sell like they did just a few years ago and will be phased out before too long. Despite my moniker I would much prefer vinyl over digital downloads if those become our only two choices. It does seem like even if cds become phased out we'll still have vinyl.

[Jymbot]

Cds on the way out??
Honestly, this is the first I heard of this.

So then, no new PHYSICAL medium to replace cd?

People just content to store ghosts?

[Scott Bails]

Unfortunately, yes, Jymbot.

I'm not a vinyl guy, but I much prefer physical property of digital files, as with the physical property, you can have both.

But alas, I seem to be in the minority.

[Digital_Man]

Well, I hope I'm wrong. It is possible that cds will just become a niche market(if it's not already) much the way vinyl is. However, if the battle comes down to vinyl versus cds I think vinyl will win. People seem to be either really hardcore and value the physical medium(ie hipsters and those who don't care about what's popular)and those who aren't really big music fans and just do what everyone else does and go along with whatever is current. Think of it this way. Cassette tapes were around for a long time but they are gone now. Vinyl being the original medium for music gives it an advantage that will probably make it outlive cds.

[meimjustalawnmower]

The thing is that now anybody has the option of making their own physical copy very cheaply and conveniently. Much more so than even cassettes. Personally, for the most enjoyable listening experience, I'd take analog vinyl all day long, but I also loved the convenience of CD's and the same goes with WAV or mp3. I rip a lot of stuff to my computer because that's where I'm usually listening. Being an old music seller, of course I miss the physical mediums and the brick & mortars, but the other thing about gettin' old in this age of technology is the joy of not having to leave your chair to buy and listen to an album. ;)

[tom unbound]

"Gee, the music store wouldn't give me anything for my WAV files, my mp3's, my cassettes, my 8-tracks, but they bought my Edison cylinders."

[Zeuhlmate]

I prefer Vinyl (It just sounds better ... when maintained properly etc.) although CD's are more practical and the media I use the most. I will (as long as I can) not buy downloads unless there is no choice.

Brave new world is here:

Sell your used digital files https://www.redigi.com/

or store your CD's and access them from where ever:

https://www.murfie.com/features (https://www.murfie.com/features)

[Adm.Kirk]

For me, it's vinyl when available, CD's when there is no vinyl and downloads when there is no other option, such as the recent run of Stones concerts.

I was not happy that the new Van Morrison was not available on vinyl. One of the few new releases I've picked up this year that no vinyl was produced for.

Most of my listening is done in front of a stereo with a turntable and cd player. I can't get into listening to music on a computer.

Bill

[Chain]

The thing is that now anybody has the option of making their own physical copy very cheaply and conveniently.

Not to sure how easy it is looking here (http://www.synthgear.com/2010/diy/how-to-pirate-a-vinyl-record/)

[Digital_Man]

45 cents for Snoop Dog is still 45 cents too much. :P

[80s were ok]

I don't believe CD's are going anywhere. I think they can and will co-exist with digital files for many years to come. I've been selling CD's (and DVDs') online since 1999. Even then, people were always telling me "yea, but no one is going to be buying those". Quite frankly, the more people tell me this, the more I sell and at higher prices as well. Personally, I think DVD's loaded with quality extra content will be worth A LOT money, as time goes on and there are fewer and fewer places to buy physical product. People will want those commentaries and documentaries and whatever else are on the DVD's...not just a stream of the movie. I'm talking about true movie buffs, the casual movie fan will continue to be content with just watching a move in Cable or TV or Netflix or whatever. And Vinyl will continue to be the niche format it is today so long live Vinyl.

[80s were ok]

I noticed that Kmart no longer sells cds(not that they ever had much of a selection but still)so that by itself is not a good sign.. I was in Kmart two nights ago and they had CD's. It was the same lamo selection they always have, but they had them. Current releases, popular cataloge items, $5-priced titles, it was all there.

[meimjustalawnmower]

The standard music CD is on the brink of extinction and will most likely be gone within the next 3 years, as will the standard DVD, being totally replaced by Blu-Ray. There will always be a collectors market, just as there is for anything else, but discount retailers such as Wal*Mart, Kmart, etc are not going to devote real estate to these dying formats, and it's just a matter of time before the last of the FYE's and Best Buys go belly up.

[80s were ok]

I don't see CD's going away in three years, or even 10 years. The "death of the CD" has been talked about since at least the late 90's. The loss of the Standard DVD to the Blu-ray won't be that big of a deal if it ever even happens. Blu-ray is still considered a niche format. I mean Laserdiscs were far supior to VHS yet VHS kicked its ass. So something "better" doesn't automatically guarantee general acceptance.

[simon moon]

I much prefer physical media than files. Even though Hi-rez sounds pretty damn good.

Vinyl is a must for me. Not that I think it always sounds better than digital, but it certainly does SOME things better. Particularly: imaging, soundstage, ambiance.

I also love CD's. Will be hard to live without them (if they truly go away as predicted). Can't beat that dynamic range, low noise floor, convenience.

When I listen to classical, especially chamber music, vinyl is my first choice. Being able to 'see' the players in a very defined space in my room is something that I would find it hard to live without. This also goes for a lot of jazz, especially the ECM stuff. Digital formats do not do this as well.

As already mentioned, a properly maintained LP is amazingly quite. And when played on a good TT, arm and cartridge, the sound is very seductive.

With prog, or fusion, digital is fine, since most of it is recorded with modern recording techniques (musicians recording different parts at different times, overdubs, effects, etc). Although I still like it on vinyl if it was originally recorded during the analog era.

MP3 are unlistenable to me. They are so sonically compromised. They are highly fatiguing.

[meimjustalawnmower]

@ 80's-

Good luck with that. There were other reasons why VHS outlasted the Laserdiscs, and it had nothing to do with quality. Beta was better than VHS. Even Blu-Ray will be the last of the physical formats as Downloads will become the standard. It's inevitable.

[Reginod]

I prefer legitimate physical media; part of that is due to the fact that I am a pretty rabid collector, and part of it is due to the fact that well-maintained LPs and CDs generally sound much better than mp3 files (which sound very dry and thin to my ears). I've always loved LPs and they are still the most fun format to collect. Sadly they have also become the most expensive.

However, being primarily a music lover, I am also OK with digital media; the convenience is hard to beat, and if you stick with lossless files it's hard to argue against the sound quality. I like to take music with me wherever I go, and having a small digital player beats lugging around cases full of discs or cassettes (yes, I still have some of those too).

Unfortunately, lossless files do take up a lot more disc space, so (hopefully) higher bit-rate mp3s are often the substitute. I can tolerate them if needed, but IMO they are far inferior to physical product and/or lossless formats, so I'm trying to avoid them more and more as I acquire new stuff.

So ultimately I consider three formats to be acceptable, over the long term: LPs, CDs and lossless digital, in that order of preference. All three have advantages and drawbacks, but at the end of the day all of them can be satisfactorily used to enjoy music, which is the overall goal.

[80s were ok]

@ 80's-

Good luck with that. There were other reasons why VHS outlasted the Laserdiscs, and it had nothing to do with quality. Beta was better than VHS. Even Blu-Ray will be the last of the physical formats as Downloads will become the standard. It's inevitable.

I know Beta was better than VHS and Laser disc was better than both - that's my exact point. I'm not trying to argue with you but since you know it all, it's pointless anyway. I'm sure you will pull out the "age card" on your next post. Based on "how much you know due to your age", you must be like 90 years old. I believe CD's will be around for a long while, you don't - two opinions, the end.

[Jubal]

Most big box stores began phasing out CDs two years ago. MP3s are much better for sellers because the return rate is much lower.

[meimjustalawnmower]

I know Beta was better than VHS and Laser disc was better than both - that's my exact point. I'm not trying to argue with you but since you know it all, it's pointless anyway. I'm sure you will pull out the "age card" on your next post.
Dude- I can't help if I'm more "experienced" than you are. I've been on the retail end of this stuff for nearly 30 years, and my "opinion" is based on all that I've seen and learned in that amount of time. It's not as if I'm makin' all this stuff up. Sure, they were predicting the end of the CD back in '99. But in 1999 you couldn't download a movie to your phone. It's the advances in technology that have been made in such a short period of time that determines the future. Now, by the same token, you do sell used CD's on ebay, so I'm certainly willing to bow to your superior knowledge. ;)

[80s were ok]

Dude- I can't help if I'm more "experienced" than you are. I've been on the retail end of this stuff for nearly 30 years, and my "opinion" is based on all that I've seen and learned in that amount of time. It's not as if I'm makin' all this stuff up. Sure, they were predicting the end of the CD back in '99. But in 1999 you couldn't download a movie to your phone. It's the advances in technology that have been made in such a short period of time that determines the future. Now, by the same token, you do sell used CD's on ebay, so I'm certainly willing to bow to your superior knowledge. ;)

you really an impossible person to have an intelligent conversation with. It must be incredibly miserable for anyone who gets stuck sitting next you on a bus or a plane...or at Thanksgiving dinner. Wow, you not only pulled out the "age card" but you pulled out the "I've worked in retail card" too. Nice job! Anyway, I still think BOTH can and will co-exist. I'm not saying that as fact, but as opinion.

[Jymbot]

The standard music CD is on the brink of extinction and will most likely be gone within the next 3 years

Like feck.

[meimjustalawnmower]

you really an impossible person to have an intelligent conversation with. It must be incredibly miserable for anyone who gets stuck sitting next you on a bus or a plane...or at Thanksgiving dinner. Wow, you not only pulled out the "age card" but you pulled out the "I've worked in retail card" too. Nice job!
And, as always, you pulled out the "petulant" card.
This is too easy.

[80s were ok]

So ultimately I consider three formats to be acceptable, over the long term: LPs, CDs and lossless digital, in that order of preference. All three have advantages and drawbacks, but at the end of the day all of them can be satisfactorily used to enjoy music, which is the overall goal.

correct, I think all three will survived and co-exist for many years to come.

[rapidfirerob]

I still have my album collection and my cassettes, which get played in the car, or not at all. I put mp3s on the iPod, of course, which is used for work at low volumes.
I'd hate to see CDs go as mp3s are not fantastic, soundwise. Vinyl is still the best in that department IMO.

[ronmac]

FWIW, I was at Best Buy yesterday and they had at least two different turntables for sale. :)

[80s were ok]

FWIW, I was at Best Buy yesterday and they had at least two different turntables for sale. :)

and just about every store, even places like Kohls and Big Lots, sell those "Vintage" looking turntables, I think some that let you record your records onto MP3s or whatever. Yes, they are total shit, but they are turntables...being sold in Big Lots and Kohls.

[tom unbound]

and just about every store, even places like Kohls and Big Lots, sell those "Vintage" looking turntables, I think some that let you record your records onto MP3s or whatever. Yes, they are total shit, but they are turntables...being sold in Big Lots and Kohls.

I considered buying one of those 'conversion' turntables but the look of the cartridges scared me away....fast !

[80s were ok]

I considered buying one of those 'conversion' turntables but the look of the cartridges scared me away....fast !

yea, some of the cheaper ones would probably fuck up your vinyl in the process.

[meimjustalawnmower]

Any turntable with a pre-amp can be converted with only a USB adaptor.

[80s were ok]

I guess this is on topic...a few more FYE's in NJ are closign (that I know of). Somerville NJ and Eatontown.

[Zeuhlmate]

If the turntable doesnt sound good, the mp3 wont either.
But Project does make turntables with this option. Like this one http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutphusb
http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/mp3s/vinyl-takes-another-turn-20120620-20mo5.html

[rcarlberg]

It seems to me that whether many of us like it or not cds are going the way of the dinosaur. Silly goose. If CDs are being phased out -- which as others have pointed out, is a pretty outre assumption -- but if they are, they're being supplanted by digital downloads -- not by vinyl.

[davis]

AFAIK, other than hearing a needle in a groove or pop/crackle sounds, I can't tell whether I'm listening to a recording on vinyl or digital.
As long as blank CD-Rs are available, I'll continuing burning digital download$ onto them. likewise, if it's on CD, I'll buy that unless the digital version is more affordable.

[Digital_Man]

Silly goose. If CDs are being phased out -- which as others have pointed out, is a pretty outre assumption -- but if they are, they're being supplanted by digital downloads -- not by vinyl.

Yeah, I'm way out of line. :roll

I think you are the silly one since you seem to be oblivious to the fact that vinyl has made a pretty strong comeback over the past ten years or so not to mention that there are always going to be some people who will want and even demand a physical format.

Oh and others can point out what they want but I think it's pretty apparent cds are slowly being phased out. Anyone who can't see that is just living in denial. That's not to say they will definitely disappear forever but the market is increasingly becoming smaller and smaller and it's very possible they will go the way of cassette tapes.

[Trane]

The standard music CD is on the brink of extinction and will most likely be gone within the next 3 years, as will the standard DVD, being totally replaced by Blu-Ray. There will always be a collectors market, just as there is for anything else, but discount retailers such as Wal*Mart, Kmart, etc are not going to devote real estate to these dying formats, and it's just a matter of time before the last of the FYE's and Best Buys go belly up.

For once, I'm agreeing with 80's...

CDs are not going anywhere... yes sales are dwindling and some artistes will probably choose not to release on CD;... but who gives a shit?? Shoot themselves in the other foot by not releasing vinyls either... see if I care...

Nope, CDs will probably/certainly always outsell vinyls (which are a fad right now)...

I mean if the stores are out of business, it's because everyone buys on the web... but CDs are still over 50% of music sales

[Digital_Man]

For once, I'm agreeing with 80's...

CDs are not going anywhere... yes sales are dwindling and some artistes will probably choose not to release on CD;... but who gives a shit?? Shoot themselves in the other foot by not releasing vinyls either... see if I care...

Nope, CDs will probably/certainly always outsell vinyls (which are a fad right now)...

I mean if the stores are out of business, it's because everyone buys on the web... but CDs are still over 50% of music sales

That's fine by me. I prefer cds to vinyl over all anyway(although both have advantages and disadvantages). I personally don't see why we can't have all three formats but the truth is you rarely see people at the gym or anywhere these days with a portable cd player. It's all ipods, ipods, ipods. What good are cds and how can it stay around that long if they stop making cd players and yes stereo systems that don't have cd players but instead just have docking stations for ipods seem to be more common these days.

[Trane]

That's fine by me. I prefer cds to vinyl over all anyway(although both have advantages and disadvantages). I personally don't see why we can't have all three formats but the truth is you rarely see people at the gym or anywhere these days with a portable cd player. It's all ipods, ipods, ipods. What good are cds and how can it stay around that long if they stop making cd players and yes stereo systems that don't have cd players but instead just have docking stations for ipods seem to be more common these days.


I'm not big on having music stuck to my ears all over the place... I have Cds in the car and at home >> that's about 95% of the music time I have... I still have a discman and a CD wallet, in case I'm going on a short trip, but I do carry around my rather big Sennheiser headphones, because I refuse to use AMAP these ... earphones... yeah, sure it's a little more cumbersome, but it's much better than those memory banks and needleheads speakers damaging your eardrums

Yeah, of course joggers have stopped using walkman and discman a long time ago >> MP3/iPods are indeed so much lighter and smaller....
but if I'm ever going to jog (not likely ;) ) again, I won't want to listen to music at a time I sufffer (on top of it, it's dangerous to cut yourself from surrounding streetnoises)

[80s were ok]

I'm not big on having music stuck to my ears all over the place... I have Cds in the car and at home >> that's about 95% of the music time I have... I still have a discman and a CD wallet, in case I'm going on a short trip, but I do carry around my rather big Sennheiser headphones, because I refuse to use AMAP these ... earphones... yeah, sure it's a little more cumbersome, but it's much better than those memory banks and needleheads speakers damaging your eardrums


Big Earphones User here too....stuffing small earbuds into ones ears isn't a very safe thing to do plus quite frankly, it's kind of gross. No matter how many Q-tips one uses, there is always earwax in there and earbuds will stuff that earwax futher in. If you notice, all sportcasters still wear earphones the size of a buick and it's for good reasons.

[simon moon]

Nope, CDs will probably/certainly always outsell vinyls (which are a fad right now)...


I predict that vinyl will be a sought after format longer than CD's.

As I said earlier, vinyl has many positive attributes that some listeners prize over the positive attributes of digital formats.

The 'fad' aspect is not as large as you believe. Not to mention, that many that are currently into vinyl for the 'fad' aspect, will come to enjoy those positive sonic attributes that vinyl is capable of. So, there will be future vinyl fans for the 'right reasons' due the the fad.

[Trane]

Big Earphones User here too....stuffing small earbuds into ones ears isn't a very safe thing to do plus quite frankly, it's kind of gross. No matter how many Q-tips one uses, there is always earwax in there and earbuds will stuff that earwax futher in. If you notice, all sportcasters still wear earphones the size of a buick and it's for good reasons.

The earbuds get sucked in by the void inside the sportcaster's skull?? ;)

[Levgan]

I can only speak for myself but FWIW:

I don't buy CDs anymore without having listened to it first and making my mind up on whether I need it or not. On the other hand, I still see myself spending $50 on the vinyl LP that I haven't heard a note from. The explanation is fairly simple - original vinyl is a precious commodity, and if I don't like the album, I will easily get my money back by selling or trading the record. Not so with the CDs, especially those that are in print and are available everywhere - naturally most people into this stuff would prefer to get a new copy from the retailer rather than buy my used one (even if it's been played just once or twice).

I also ceased buying CDs online - except those that are offered by the musicians themselves for the alluring price, such as Manogurgeil that was offered on the old PE a few months ago by one of the band members (I think a few of us jumped on this opportunity, and the album turned out really great). For everything else, it really doesn't make sense, with the postage and all, given that I won't listen to the actual physical copy more than once or twice anyway - I do not spend much time at home. If I like it, I'd normally burn it into digital files and listen to them from there on. So most CDs I'm getting now get bought over here in Moscow, and I have to admit that I tend to wait until I find used copies or those new unsold items will end up in bargain bins. I'm not in a hurry at all - I have a lot of music to listen to.

I know that if I ever get into trouble or my family is going through tough times, I can always raise some money by selling my vinyls. So I'm happily investing in them - they bring both musical pleasure and a possibility of potential financial gain. I can't force myself to pay the typical prices for CDs anymore. So, in my universe, CDs are dying indeed.

[enpdllp]

Although I do not think it is going to happen any soon, I don't have that much of a problem if CDs are discontinued as long as they have lossless downloads as a replacement. I see mp3 downloads the same way as I saw buying albums released in cassette back in the early eighties. A waste of my money. I would not buy any music in lossy format when storage space is so cheap and most of the people have high speed internet available to download their music.

[yogibear]

i had records and could not get them to stop skipping popping, weezing et al. so the cd's are my media of choice. downloads to me are not worth it since i want a physical item in my hands and not bit s and bytes.

[80s were ok]

not to mention i have lots of CD's and Vinyl (and cassettes) autographed. Besides great conversation pieces, they all will retain some value. You can't get an MP3 autographed.

[meimjustalawnmower]

The point is this: The overall demand for both vinyl and CD's has decreased exponentially, to the point where only a select amount of titles are readily available. There's no denying that fact. Otherwise, there would still be record stores in every mall in every town. But now it's getting harder to find a mall, much less a record store. If I wanted to find a particular ceramic fuse, I probably could, but it would be less trouble to just replace the fuse box with a circuit breaker. Of course, now I have to explain to 80's boy about what a fuse box is. Fuck it. He can Google it. ;)

[tom unbound]

If Thomas Edison autographed your fuse box, I'd recommend that you save it after you changed it. ;)

[Scott Bails]

It'd probably be worth more if Nikola Tesla signed it. ;)

[80s were ok]

The point is this: The overall demand for both vinyl and CD's has decreased exponentially, to the point where only a select amount of titles are readily available. There's no denying that fact. Otherwise, there would still be record stores in every mall in every town. But now it's getting harder to find a mall, much less a record store. If I wanted to find a particular ceramic fuse, I probably could, but it would be less trouble to just replace the fuse box with a circuit breaker. Of course, now I have to explain to 80's boy about what a fuse box is. Fuck it. He can Google it. ;)

yes, old man - i need you to tell me what a fuse box. Actually, what is a mall??? And why can't anyone find one? One day you can tell us your World War 1 stories.

[meimjustalawnmower]

yes, old man - i need you to tell me what a fuse box. Actually, what is a mall??? And why can't anyone find one? One day you can tell us your World War 1 stories.

Like shooting fish in a barrel. :rofl

[80s were ok]

Like shooting fish in a barrel. :rofl

oh can you teach me to fish too? Then I want to hear about what a "Master of Customer Service" you were back in the 1930's.

[Joe F.]

Yeah, I'm way out of line. :roll

Ivinyl has made a pretty strong comeback over the past ten years or so not to mention that there are always going to be some people who will want and even demand a physical format.

Oh and others can point out what they want but I think it's pretty apparent cds are slowly being phased out. Anyone who can't see that is just living in denial. That's not to say they will definitely disappear forever but the market is increasingly becoming smaller and smaller and it's very possible they will go the way of cassette tapes.

While vinyl may be making a "comeback" it's still in relatively small quantities (500-10,000 copies). Not exactly setting the world on fire.

I would imagine CDs will will be like this at some point and most likely already are in some cases.

[meimjustalawnmower]

oh can you teach me to fish too? Then I want to hear about what a "Master of Customer Service" you were back in the 1930's.

You're killin' me dude. :lol

[80s were ok]

You're killin' me dude. :lolso is your defense mechanism. You are just killing me dude.

:rofl;):lol

[Trane]

While vinyl may be making a "comeback" it's still in relatively small quantities (500-10,000 copies). Not exactly setting the world on fire.

I would imagine CDs will will be like this at some point and most likely already are in some cases.

Indeed, maybe Prince or Radiohead are able to move 10 000 vinyls world-wide, but that's about it...
I can't think of many bands that would sell half as many vinyls as they do CDs...

Yeah, in the worst case scenario (and unless some other physical format comes to dramatically upstage it in the buying solid format poublic), CDs will indeed sell those reduced amounts... But in 10 years time if Muse is still around, they will still press CDs

[tom unbound]

Sean -- We REALLY need a spell-check option on this wonderful website. ;)

[Brian Griffin]

My collection lives on my hard drive, in MP-3 format

I played a physical CD once that I can remember in 2012, and have a less than zero desire to return to LP's

The beyond absurd convenience of a prog jukebox available instantly on any of my home theaters, PC's, laptops, tablets, or droids more than makes up for what I feel is a negligible difference in sound quality

BG

[Scott Bails]

My collection lives on my hard drive, in MP-3 format

I played a physical CD once that I can remember in 2012, and have a less than zero desire to return to LP's

The beyond absurd convenience of a prog jukebox available instantly on any of my home theaters, PC's, laptops, tablets, or droids more than makes up for what I feel is a negligible difference in sound quality

BG


Agree that the digital files are very convenient, and I too probably listen to that format more than anything, but I like having the physical product. Computers and hard drives are very fallible. It's nice to have the tangible backup.

Not to mention that digital files have virtually no value whatsoever.

[80s were ok]

you can't get digital files autographed and then brag to people that you met so-and-so!

[ronmac]

I'm a vinyl fan, for sure and feel nothing compares to it. But, vinyl is not making a comeback. It has made a comeback from near-death to tepid sustainability, but at such a small niche that it's hardly what most would call "making a comeback." It's unfortunate, because vinyl has shown to have a longer life than any other format, which is saying something.

[Brian Griffin]

you can't get digital files autographed and then brag to people that you met so-and-so!



Not to mention that digital files have virtually no value whatsoever.

I'll tell you what, I have been very lucky to have my David Bowie "Heroes" sign many items for me over the years - as far as CD's go out of the thousands I have these are really the only ones that hold ANY value to me at all at this point!

BG

[enpdllp]

I'm a vinyl fan, for sure and feel nothing compares to it. But, vinyl is not making a comeback. It has made a comeback from near-death to tepid sustainability, but at such a small niche that it's hardly what most would call "making a comeback." It's unfortunate, because vinyl has shown to have a longer life than any other format, which is saying something.

I agree 100% and I am glad that I have taken great care of the record collection that I have been accruing during the last three decades plus. Every year that passes by there will be less and less vinyl available in decent shape. Twenty to twenty five years ago when everybody and their mother were replacing their record collection with CDs, there were tons of stores where you could get used LPs in pretty good shape for as low as quarter. Nowadays there are very few stores selling vinyl and the cheapest LPs are in the five dollar range and not always in the best shape.

One issue that I have with a number of recent vinyl pressings of old material is that some labels are using digital mixes that were supposed to be used for CDs and not for LPs. This make the newer vinyl versions sound way worse than the original and most of the time worse than a "hot" CD. The record companies will release these newer pressings of old material in 180 and 200 gram virgin vinyl with elaborate gatefold packaging thinking that will compensate for the horrible mix on the acetate. Buyers beware.

[enpdllp]

My collection lives on my hard drive, in MP-3 format

I played a physical CD once that I can remember in 2012, and have a less than zero desire to return to LP's

The beyond absurd convenience of a prog jukebox available instantly on any of my home theaters, PC's, laptops, tablets, or droids more than makes up for what I feel is a negligible difference in sound quality

BG

With storage space so cheap, I can't understand why limit yourself to a lossy copy of your music instead of lossless for your home system.

[Brian Griffin]

With storage space so cheap, I can't understand why limit yourself to a lossy copy of your music instead of lossless for your home system.

I've filled up 1, 1.5, and 2 TB drives, just with MP-3's as I've gone along

True, when I started doing this I'd adopted 192 kps as the minimum and much of my early rips are still what I play, but now I use 320 kps as the default and I don't think there is any difference between a 320 rip vs a wav, at least to my 50 year old plus ears

MP's work everywhere, the PC's drive as well as the various I-pods

BG

[Ludovico]

Vinyl does not sound better than CD, that's a fact. Vinyl has a limited bandwidth, some like the sound of the medium but it is not neutral at all.
So, some prog rock albums haven't been reissed on CD yet, i have no choice but to buy it on vinyl.
For example Jean Luc Chevalier – Dromadaire, Yochk'o Seffer - Délire, Jacques Thollot – Résurgence, Benoit Widemann – Stress

[Chain]

Vinyl does not sound better than CD, that's a fact

Fact? Pffffffffffffffft

[Ludovico]

Fact? Pffffffffffffffft

Yes this is a fact. I am happy that most sound engineers agree with that and release albums in CD.

[80s were ok]

Vinyl does not sound better than CD, that's a fact.

a fact that is impossible to prove. Everyone hears things differently. If you have bad-ass equipment, vinyl will sound better.

[ronmac]

Vinyl does not sound better than CD, that's a fact.

Facts can be proven with data. Where's yours? It seems to me that the audiophiles claim vinyl has a warmer sound than CDs, which is considered better.

Vinyl records use a needle in a groove to create sound vibrations that are amplified to create waves that create vibrations in the ear and convert them into sound. It's all analog and seems pretty natural. CDs try to digitally emulate the same natural phenomena with a series of 1s and 0s. Seems pretty unnatural to me.

[Jymbot]

Here are some things Ive pulled off the internet. Facts? That question is up to you to decide:

vinyl 75 db dynamic range. vocal sibilance more pronounced (tape is the best media for reduced sibilance)

treble - you can put as much on cd as you want. vinyl is limited

due to mastering matters, vinyl cannot handle deep bass. it lacks bass. digital can go real low with resolution (Personally I feel strongly that tape medium is the best for bass, especially on 7 and a half inch, in-line heads , reel to reel systems)


tight grooves - especially as you approach center of record - results in stylus "hydro-planing" which = distortion. (That is why proper engineers put the quiet tracks on the end of each lp side.)

on vinyl, under 20 minute recording times give best sound. Again , an example of flawed medium limiting what you can get out of it. Irrefutable physical limitation


vinyl engineer has much more shit to contend with than cd one does


to have safer more extended vinyl sides, the drums and bass have to be cut in the center. This means , at the expense of decent sound, in the vinyl medium panning is heavy handedly confined/impeded.


as to vinyl reissues - most suffer from decreased harmonic integrity, most noteably in the mid-range


misleading to say that with cds a portion of sound is lost: cd sound is perfectly re-created as long as it is below 22050 hz (Nyquist Shannon sampling theorm). Above this the lost info SIMPLY CANNOT BE DISCERNED (since not many humans can hear above 19000 hz)

also cd will not play above 22 khz since anti-aliasing filter removes all above.


Sorry, I dont recall where I pulled this all from.

[Scott Bails]

It's unfortunate, because vinyl has shown to have a longer life than any other format, which is saying something.

Can you expand on this?

Without getting into the pointless "audio quality discussion," I've always thought that CDs were by far more durable than vinyl.

[ronmac]

Can you expand on this?

Without getting into the pointless "audio quality discussion," I've always thought that CDs were by far more durable than vinyl.

I'm not talking about durability of material (and CD life expectancy is questionable), I'm talking about longevity of format. After all the new formats over the decades, vinyl still survives. That flat rotating disc with grooves (which wasn't always vinyl) has been around for well over 100 years. I would not expect CDs to be around another 70 years.

[enpdllp]

I've always thought that CDs were by far more durable than vinyl.

Not necessarily true. Have you ever heard of CD rot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot) or CD bronzing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_bronzing)?

CDRs and CDRWs have an even shorter life expectancy than "silver" discs.

[Trane]

I'm not talking about durability of material (and CD life expectancy is questionable), I'm talking about longevity of format. After all the new formats over the decades, vinyl still survives. That flat rotating disc with grooves (which wasn't always vinyl) has been around for well over 100 years. I would not expect CDs to be around another 70 years.

there were vinyls in (or before) 1912?? ;)


Not necessarily true. Have you ever heard of CD rot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot) or CD bronzing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_bronzing)?

CDRs and CDRWs have an even shorter life expectancy than "silver" discs.

CDs: Very limited problems, long ago fixed...

And if some buddies have had problems with CD-rs, I haven't had any problems, YET!!!
OK, I systematically used a hi-fi CD burner writing at the nominal speed using music-only CDrs

Not saying it won't happen to me.... but it's over 10 years I started doing these Cd-rs... and I've yet to have one go bad... Though a buddy of mine lso recotrds CDrs the same way, and he's got those black discs simulatings vinyls... got a few of those too, but they're still playing.... But these are notoriously crap

[enpdllp]

CDs: Very limited problems, long ago fixed...

And if some buddies have had problems with CD-rs, I haven't had any problems, YET!!!
OK, I systematically used a hi-fi CD burner writing at the nominal speed using music-only CDrs

Not saying it won't happen to me.... but it's over 10 years I started doing these Cd-rs... and I've yet to have one go bad... Though a buddy of mine lso recotrds CDrs the same way, and he's got those black discs simulatings vinyls... got a few of those too, but they're still playing.... But these are notoriously crap

Although most of the manufacturing problems that led to CD rot were addressed, there are still many of those CDs out there plus a lot of CD rot is induced by folks that leave their CDs in their cars when the weather is hot. Heat breaks down some of the adhesives and chemicals used on CD manufacturing and allows other outside factors like humidity to wreak havoc on CDs. On CDRs, the layer used to hold the information on the disc is not as sturdy as on the silver discs. In some cases the dye used in the data layer is very sensitive to U/V rays. Every time I see a car with one of those visor CD holders, I hope the visor is filled with CDs with the latest pop crap.;)

[Jymbot]

Trane:
Please don't have it in for me by my bringing this up, but a good friend has to:

You know, right now there is a long queue of PE'ers in front of the "Snicker-Behind-the-Back-Of-Trane" display.

The reason being: it is incredibly RETARDED to speak of "vinyls". "Vinyl" is singular and plural. (But mainly plural.) EX: "I gots all my mostest bestest VINYL from preying on collectors in the sanitorium."

[ronmac]

there were vinyls in (or before) 1912??

The first flat disc was made in the 1880s. It wasn't actually vinyl, which is why I was specific about that.

[Trane]

Trane:
Please don't have it in for me by my bringing this up, but a good friend has to:

You know, right now there is a long queue of PE'ers in front of the "Snicker-Behind-the-Back-Of-Trane" display.

The reason being: it is incredibly RETARDED to speak of "vinyls". "Vinyl" is singular and plural. (But mainly plural.) EX: "I gots all my mostest bestest VINYL from preying on collectors in the sanitorium."


too bad you had to follow a fairly good post (your best in a long time) in the Godbluff thread, by a typically turd like this one... the day you'll write French (or Dutch or Spanish) the way I write English, come back and try to teach lessons to others... I speak of vinyls as "records" or "albums" >> as a noun, not an adjective... So I'll put an "s" to it if I care to speak of more than one


People are doing a lot worse than snichkering behind you back... not that I care at all

Merry fuckmas to you dude...;)

[80s were ok]

The reason being: it is incredibly RETARDED to speak of "vinyls". "Vinyl" is singular and plural. (But mainly plural.) EX: "I gots all my mostest bestest VINYL from preying on collectors in the sanitorium."

gotta keep using that word Retarded, huh. What the fuck?

[meimjustalawnmower]

http://thepluralofvinyl.com/images/thepluralofvinyl.jpg

[Jymbot]

Merry fuckmas to you dude...;)


Please dont.
I do not believe in your Christ.


http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/ImagesCAKYK2RC.jpg

[Trane]

Please dont.
I do not believe in your Christ.


http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/ImagesCAKYK2RC.jpg

I don't have any!!!

[80s were ok]

guys, get a room.

[spacefreak]

Cds on the way out??
Honestly, this is the first I heard of this.

The trend for the music buying public in Europe the last 2 years. In the remaining record stores and fairs mostly.


So then, no new PHYSICAL medium to replace cd?

Vinyl is the medium of preference for those that still go to what it used to be called a record store. 80% over 20% of CD sales. There are quite a lot of retailers in my country that do not order new CD releases anymore and only one is kept exclusively with CDs. Yet CDs sales will remain, but in a considerably lower level than vinyl (I'm speaking about record store sales but we still got many up here...)



People just content to store ghosts?

Unfortunately 95% of these below 35 y.o., yes.

[spacefreak]

Cassette tapes were around for a long time but they are gone now.

They return as well (to my surprise). See how many new underground releases (mostly in the States) are exclusively on cassette. And quite a lot of labels are currently releasing on vinyl and cassette format. A search on http://www.aquariusrecords.org under the "exact keyword --> cassette" will visually display you what I mean.

[spacefreak]

I considered buying one of those 'conversion' turntables but the look of the cartridges scared me away....fast !

Yes, better plug your laptop's / desktop's sound card to your home stereo equipment than play any vinyl with such plow they call a "cartridge". Then copy as "wav" file to your hard disk and convert using any compression format/rate you wish. There is excellent freeware for this type of work.

[spacefreak]

One issue that I have with a number of recent vinyl pressings of old material is that some labels are using digital mixes that were supposed to be used for CDs and not for LPs. This make the newer vinyl versions sound way worse than the original and most of the time worse than a "hot" CD. The record companies will release these newer pressings of old material in 180 and 200 gram virgin vinyl with elaborate gatefold packaging thinking that will compensate for the horrible mix on the acetate. Buyers beware.

Very true. It is impossible to have a compressed CDmixed album sounding good on vinyl.

[spacefreak]

misleading to say that with cds a portion of sound is lost:


Probably Walter, but the "loudness wars" are held on CD battleground. It's not the medium per-se but what the engineers are doing (or forced to do by modern listening habits) with the medium and I think they treated the vinyl format more "ear friendly" in the history of recorded music.

[rapidfirerob]

They return as well (to my surprise). See how many new underground releases (mostly in the States) are exclusively on cassette. And quite a lot of labels are currently releasing on vinyl and cassette format. A search on http://www.aquariusrecords.org under the "exact keyword --> cassette" will visually display you what I mean.
I typed it in and they came up out of print or unavailable.

[spacefreak]

I typed it in and they came up out of print or unavailable.

Probably because the store stocks limited numbers, however this does not mean that they are not getting issued for a niche market. And the "non-available" status means that they are selling them...

Few years ago the format was entirely extinct.

[Oreb]

Yeah yeah. The death of CDs has been reported for at least four years now, and yet I seem to be finding more and more stuff in just that format to clutter my cave.

[Jerjo]

I would say that CDs are dying in big box brick n' mortar stores. Any trip to a Target or Best Buy will show you a reduced selection. It's still alive in the independent stores though and of course online places like Laser, Burning Shed, Racket, Amazon, etc.

I have a couple thousand CDs, close to a thousand vinyl LPs, and about 800g of music stored on my external hard drives. I started backing up every CD-R that I had because I noticed there was deterioration in a few older ones. Most of my music is played on the system in my office, which isn't exactly an audiophile's dream. Though I prefer lossless wav files, I can't notice much difference between a 320 MP3 and wav. The computer isn't sending the purest audio signal to my receiver for one thing and I play it at a fairly low volume most of the time. But when I get to the big system in our living room, which is somewhat high end, I can tell you the difference between a MP3 and lossless. My speakers will pick up the weakness in a recording pretty quick and there are some CDs that do not have the same charm as their vinyl counterparts. It is far easier to play CDs but there's something nice about sitting in the dark with a dram of whiskey, listening to vinyl.

[rapidfirerob]

They return as well (to my surprise). See how many new underground releases (mostly in the States) are exclusively on cassette. And quite a lot of labels are currently releasing on vinyl and cassette format. A search on http://www.aquariusrecords.org under the "exact keyword --> cassette" will visually display you what I mean.
That's good news. I play my cassettes in my car still.

[80s were ok]

Yeah yeah. The death of CDs has been reported for at least four years now, and yet I seem to be finding more and more stuff in just that format to clutter my cave.

at least the last decade, actually. And every year, someone will write an article about it and everyone gets on the "CD's are history" bandwagon, but as you said, they just continue on and on. If anything, with all these special editions and stuff, CD's seem stronger than ever.

[80s were ok]

That's good news. I play my cassettes in my car still.

i got a crapload of cassettes too that are mainly for my car as well. They have held up surprisingly well, but I'm prepared for any cassette to get eaten up by a tape player at any time.

[enpdllp]

I would say that CDs are dying in big box brick n' mortar stores. Any trip to a Target or Best Buy will show you a reduced selection. It's still alive in the independent stores though and of course online places like Laser, Burning Shed, Racket, Amazon, etc.


CDs were and are still used by many electronic appliances stores (Best Buy, etc.) as loss leaders. They were one of the main reasons brick and mortar record stores were almost wiped out. With the more recent home theater fever, DVDs and Blu-rays have been added to the list of loss leaders for those stores. Most of the record stores still alive survive by having an eclectic selection and a good stock of used CDs.


I have a couple thousand CDs, close to a thousand vinyl LPs, and about 800g of music stored on my external hard drives. I started backing up every CD-R that I had because I noticed there was deterioration in a few older ones. Most of my music is played on the system in my office, which isn't exactly an audiophile's dream. Though I prefer lossless wav files, I can't notice much difference between a 320 MP3 and wav. The computer isn't sending the purest audio signal to my receiver for one thing and I play it at a fairly low volume most of the time. But when I get to the big system in our living room, which is somewhat high end, I can tell you the difference between a MP3 and lossless. My speakers will pick up the weakness in a recording pretty quick and there are some CDs that do not have the same charm as their vinyl counterparts. It is far easier to play CDs but there's something nice about sitting in the dark with a dram of whiskey, listening to vinyl.

Have you ever considered using FLAC or ALAC formats instead of WAVs for the music on your computer? Both are lossless formats that could save you up to 50% of storage space and could be returned to WAV if you want to burn a CD. You could burn a CD with FLAC or ALAC, but many audiophiles claim that a CD made out WAV sounds slightly better than one made out of a FLAC or ALAC file. Another advantage of FLAC or ALAC files is that they store additional information (Song, title, artist, album, year, etc) of the track, which is usually not present on WAV files. FWIW, I have over 1800 CDs plus a couple hundred digital ROIOs and they take a little bit under 450 GB of storage space backed up on two external drives.

[Trane]

They return as well (to my surprise). See how many new underground releases (mostly in the States) are exclusively on cassette. And quite a lot of labels are currently releasing on vinyl and cassette format. A search on http://www.aquariusrecords.org under the "exact keyword --> cassette" will visually display you what I mean.
That's good news. I play my cassettes in my car still.

You must have an oldie of a car.... Of late, even CD players are not necessarily a "standard-serie equipment"


i got a crapload of cassettes too that are mainly for my car as well. They have held up surprisingly well, but I'm prepared for any cassette to get eaten up by a tape player at any time.

Yeah, I must say I had that fear about six years ago and I'd bought a used Citroen Xantia from my GF's father that still had a cassette deck into it... I waited a few months before installing my CD deck into it, so I could listen to some of my old XL-IIS tapes... I was sufficiently confident that these Maxell thingies were good enough not to unwind inside the deck... they didn't :up ... For the time I kept that car (just two years), I might as well not have changed the deck ... cos that was the last time I played them (five years almost to the day)... Before that stint, I more or less stopped playing my tapes in the late 90's...

[ronmac]

my 2001 Camry has both a CD and cassette deck. It pretty much salvaged about 900 tapes, although I still hardly listen to them.

[enpdllp]

You must have an oldie of a car.... Of late, even CD players are not necessarily a "standard-serie equipment"


I do not consider my 2006 Acura an "oldie" and it came with a CD Changer/Cassette unit. Don't remember the last time I played a cassette.

According to the following link (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/03/cassette-decks-no-longer-available-in-new-vehicles.html), the last car that came with a factory-equipped cassette deck in the dashboard was the 2010 Lexus SC430.

[Jymbot]

I listen to tapes still cos I is a Pwog Masterman and gots a real good deck - Advent earliest, Jimmehs.

[Jymbot]

Someone's response (to another poster) on recent Guardian "fad" article on vinyl:

"Well, no actually, analogue is a much higher resolution than digital, which is part of why it sounds warmer, there's more frequency there."

Oh dear. The fundamental error made by everyone who doesn't understand how either digital or analogue sound recording and reproduction works.

In just about every respect the humble CD outperforms the resolution of every single analogue format every foisted on the public with regard to resolution.

An LP is, at best, roughly equivalent to a 12-bit or 13-bit digital recording with respect to dynamic range. It's an inherently noisy medium. It suffers rumble, especially at side starts, and distortion, particularly towards the centre of the disc. Wow is a problem on numerous off-centre pressings, warping is a perennial risk. And all this before you start to talk about the colossal amount of electrical amplification required to turn the microscopic movements of a stylus into music coming out of loudspeakers, and the noise and distortion this inevitably adds to the signal.

Give me 24-bit digital any day. I'm not too fussed by the ultra-high frequencies which may sometimes find their way onto a record (though often they're little more the electronic noise and harmonic distortion on so-called high end digital formats, let alone what turns up on records above 20kHz) and are way beyond the hearing abilities of anyone reading these comments.

I spend my life and work remastering vintage recordings, whether from master tapes, 78s, vinyl or whatever. I've handled some of the best mint vinyl ever made and use good high end replay equipment. Never, ever has a vinyl record come anywhere even vaguely near approaching the technical or musical capabilities of modern digital recording and reproduction.

The rest is all snake oil, romance and nostalgia.

[80s were ok]

ok Jimmeh

[Brian Griffin]

The rest is all snake oil, romance and nostalgia.

I was on board until this last part - I have no use for vinyl(s) at this point but who doesn't like romance or nostalgia?

BG

[Jymbot]

Yes. And the tangibility factor big time.

Vinyl is like sans condom with the ol' in-out,in-out.

[Jymbot]

Vinyl is like goose feather-lined slippers on feets-up before a real cherry wood fire, with Bruichladditch in hand.

Cd/ghosts is like filthy, suppurating hobbit-feetses (after bin thru Mordor) in front of a Bic, with Miller in hand.

Does the sound matter that much?

[rcarlberg]

The rest is all snake oil, romance and nostalgia.I liked Jay Carney's characterization, "It's all magic beans and fairy dust."

[rcarlberg]

Vinyl is like goose feather-lined slippers on feets-up before a real cherry wood fire, with Bruichladditch in hand.
Yes, I can hear the fire. :)

[ronmac]

Well, let's extrapolate the same argument to film versus digital photography. I'm pretty sure people are there to argue that digital imaging has more information or wider gamut than film. And, it can probably be shown on paper. Yet, I know no commercial photographers who think it's better. Being a photo retoucher, I long for the days of drum-scanned film that doesn't have all the noise or lack of saturation that digital has. Yet, it's the convenience of the technology that has enabled it to take over the traditional means of image capturing.

I guess the argument is that science and mathematics are one thing. But, they don't necessarily result in a more natural depiction via the medium in question.

[rcarlberg]

Yet, I know no commercial photographers who think it's better. Seriously? 99.99% of all professional photographers shoot digital exclusively. Kodak is out of business.

[ronmac]

Seriously? 99.99% of all professional photographers shoot digital exclusively. Kodak is out of business.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my statement. Commercial photographers had no choice but to go digital. They got socked for tens of thousands on those early cameras, which absolutely sucked. Just because one technology took over another doesn't mean it was better. Case in point, VHS versus Beta.

BTW, Kodak is not out of business. Polaroid is, I believe. You might want to consider using facts next time. They come in handy.

[rcarlberg]

Whatever dood :)

[ronmac]

Whatever dood :)

I accept your concession, dood.

[Brian Griffin]

It's Christmas guys, cheer the fuck up!

BG

[Jymbot]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/issit.jpg

[Jymbot]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/lookup.jpg

[Jymbot]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/untitled-1.jpg

[Jymbot]

Everyone agreed?

[Jymbot]

Just in case:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/joan.jpg

[Jymbot]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/me.jpg

[Jerjo]

I like the tangent this thread has taken

[Jymbot]

And, to be fair, on the CD-pro side I advance:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/baggra/Bitco/psych/GETTINITON.jpg

[Jymbot]

No that any right-thinking person would want that shoite band on either cd or vinyl.

[Scott Bails]

We're gettin' a little NSFW here, aren't we Jimmeh?

[meimjustalawnmower]

One can never underestimate the value of brevity.

[Jymbot]

Yes.
But most people do not understand how difficult it is to present POTENT and effective brevity. This is a skill of Mastermen.

For instance, it is my opinion that Oscar Wilde put more into the (apparently ) simple short story "The Happy Prince" than you will find in the whole of "War & Peace".

Flaubert said it :"Le piccy-to-settle-the-debate-of-vinyl-vs-digital-once-and-for-always juste."

[rcarlberg]

Flaubert said it :"Le piccy"Le piccy has convinced me.

Although, the Saddam pic is obviously photoshopped -- the Heavy Weather cover is too big for a CD, too small for an LP and his thumb is on the wrong side!

[Jymbot]

HaHa!
Good eyes, Jimmeh.

Since its meant to argue cds, the Weather Report is supposed to be a lp in that piccy.

Anyways, thats a turntable under it, right?

[Trane]

I do not consider my 2006 Acura an "oldie" and it came with a CD Changer/Cassette unit. Don't remember the last time I played a cassette.

According to the following link (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/03/cassette-decks-no-longer-available-in-new-vehicles.html), the last car that came with a factory-equipped cassette deck in the dashboard was the 2010 Lexus SC430.

:O :O :O

I'd have never guessed!!!!.... In Europe, it's at least 12 years since cassette players were replaced as standard car deck...

[Trane]

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my statement. Commercial photographers had no choice but to go digital. They got socked for tens of thousands on those early cameras, which absolutely sucked. Just because one technology took over another doesn't mean it was better. Case in point, VHS versus Beta.

BTW, Kodak is not out of business. Polaroid is, I believe. You might want to consider using facts next time. They come in handy.


Yeah, but for digital picture, there was two undeniable economical and ecological arguments over argentic photos... those films rarely produced more than two or three usable/used pictures per roll shot.... And those chemical developping baths were environementally disastrous... Not sure argentic was better than digital, though: I guess in a way, it must've been the case...

I thought Polaroid was back in fad recently...

[ronmac]

Yeah, but for digital picture, there was two undeniable economical and ecological arguments over argentic photos...

Well, of course. Not to mention all of the cancer.

[moecurlythanu]

A couple articles in the national media the last couple days which touch on this subject:


http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2012/11/24/vinyl-growth-brings-need-for-turntables/1724627/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2013/01/23/digital-stores-beat-mass-merchants-in-album-sales/1843627/

[PeterG]

VY-NUL...every day.

[JKL2000]

Also, most of the chain stores are gone. FYE is still around and so is best buy but most of them are gone.

The chain stores have all been gone in NYC for nearly 10 years now, I think, but I still buy a load of CDs through the mail. I can't remember the last time I was in a music store - probably at least five years ago.

BTW, does anyone know what went in where the Virgin Megastore was near Times Square? That's a huge space.

[jkelman]

In a nutshell, my theory is that as long as cd sales are predominantly off-the-stage as they are for all but the big acts, they'll never go away. Few folks want to go to a merch table after the show, plop down $20 and get handed a card with a download key. They want something to hold that has a cover, maybe some liner notes...something tangible.

And if the majors really though CDs were dead, they'd certainly not keep these recycling/remastering/remixing programs going (though I am an advocate of some of these projects - Steven Wilson's in particular).

So no, folks, hard media is not gonna go away. And CDs - and, by extension, DVDs and Blu Rays - are still the superior media when it comes to size, price and durability. Vinyl has its charms, but while it's made something of a comeback, I honestly don't think it'll overall overtake digital media.

I could be wrong, but that's been my sense since it started a few years back, and so far it remains a niche market.

[VickiLynn]

Maybe because I grew up with vinyl, but it's still my preferred vehicle for listening pleasure. I love being able to read the liner notes and some of the artwork is incredible. I make CD copies if I want to listen to a particular album in the car, but when I'm at home it all vinyl as much as possible.

[Jubal]

The issue is NOT digital vs. vinyl. Vinyl is and will remain a niche market. CDs are definitely being phased out. They are being replaced by digital downloads. Digital files are now the best selling format category.
The question may be whether CDs will remain as a niche market just as vinyl has. I think the likely answer is yes.

[PeterG]

The issue is NOT digital vs. vinyl. Vinyl is and will remain a niche market. CDs are definitely being phased out.

Exactly. However, many labels have started releasing their artists' albums on vinyl again. And CD's are disappearing much quicker than expected.
Also, the other day I saw a long rack of new vinyl on sale in an electrical appliances shop, not a computer shop, but a proper large electrical superstore.

[ronmac]

Exactly. However, many labels have started releasing their artists' albums on vinyl again. And CD's are disappearing much quicker than expected.
Also, the other day I saw a long rack of new vinyl on sale in an electrical appliances shop, not a computer shop, but a proper large electrical superstore.

As much as I might lament it, the reality is that vinyl will NEVER make a comeback beyond being a niche market.

[Jubal]

As much as I might lament it, the reality is that vinyl will NEVER make a comeback beyond being a niche market.

Agreed. I hear comments about Fry's carrying vinyl. "WOW! Did you see how much vinyl Fry's was carrying? " What you have to realize is that ONE vinyl LP takes up 4 times the space of a CD. It may look like they have a lot of vinyl all the way down the TOP of the CD display aisle, but if you actually COUNT the number of albums, it is less than 75. They still have several thousand CDs, even thogh they are phasing those out.

[simon moon]

As much as I might lament it, the reality is that vinyl will NEVER make a comeback beyond being a niche market.


But even having a decent audio system is a niche market these days. People that take the time to go listen to different audio equipment is a niche market. Most people buy audio equipment like they are picking out a dishwasher.

For the vast majority of people, an iPod and earbuds is an audio system.

Even caring enough about music to listen actively, as opposed to listening while doing something else, is a niche.

[spacefreak]

But even having a decent audio system is a niche market these days. People that take the time to go listen to different audio equipment is a niche market. Most people buy audio equipment like they are picking out a dishwasher.

For the vast majority of people, an iPod and earbuds is an audio system.

Even caring enough about music to listen actively, as opposed to listening while doing something else, is a niche.



:up :up :up :up :up :up

[Brian Griffin]

But even having a decent audio system is a niche market these days.

As are decent headphones

BG

[VickiLynn]

The issue is NOT digital vs. vinyl. Vinyl is and will remain a niche market. CDs are definitely being phased out. They are being replaced by digital downloads. Digital files are now the best selling format category.
The question may be whether CDs will remain as a niche market just as vinyl has. I think the likely answer is yes.

Then I better get a more luxurious vehicle because CDs are the only format I have for listening to my collection while traveling. I hate the "hassle" of downloading my music to my iPod.

[Scott Bails]

I hate the "hassle" of downloading my music to my iPod.

You need to get rid of that piece of crap and get a Sansa mp3 player. No hassle, no iTunes - just use it like a flash drive. Load your music and go. No need to "manage your library," etc. None of the crap that comes with an iPod. ;)

[Brian Griffin]

Then I better get a more luxurious vehicle because CDs are the only format I have for listening to my collection while traveling. I hate the "hassle" of downloading my music to my iPod.

Why not just hand it to hubby and say "I want this, this and this put on, please?"

Thats how it is with my girls at least :)

BG

[PeterG]

Exactly, everything that isn't the current norm can be said to be a niche market.

[VickiLynn]

Why not just hand it to hubby and say "I want this, this and this put on, please?"

Thats how it is with my girls at least :)

BG

Ha! That's how I get CD copies of the albums ;)
And Scott, I will look into the Sansa...thanks for the suggestion!

[Scott Bails]

And Scott, I will look into the Sansa...thanks for the suggestion!

Amazon has it (http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Sansa-Clip-Player-Blue/dp/B002MAPSC6?tag=dealswoot-20), and you can usually find it a Newegg.com, too. It's available in 4GB and 8GB, and both take up to 32GB MicroSD cards, and both will play .mp3, FLAC, etc.

For the price, it's a great alternative to the extremely overpriced iPod.

[Jerjo]

Just got Abbey Road and Sgt Pepper on 180g vinyl. I assume that it's that new mastering but boy, does it sound sweet. Mack's bass is just so warm and round, guitar and vocals are clear as a bell.

[Digital_Man]

Amazon has it (http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Sansa-Clip-Player-Blue/dp/B002MAPSC6?tag=dealswoot-20), and you can usually find it a Newegg.com, too. It's available in 4GB and 8GB, and both take up to 32GB MicroSD cards, and both will play .mp3, FLAC, etc.

For the price, it's a great alternative to the extremely overpriced iPod.


Hmmmm. Sounds interesting. But is it really that simple? I don't know anything about flashdrives. So all you do is plug it into your computer and the music just automatically transfers? My computer is set up with itunes. I'll have to look into this.

[nescafe726]

Its seems like people nowadays do not have time to play vinyl.

[Scott Bails]

Hmmmm. Sounds interesting. But is it really that simple? I don't know anything about flashdrives. So all you do is plug it into your computer and the music just automatically transfers? My computer is set up with itunes. I'll have to look into this.

No, it doesn't "automatically" transfer, but your computer will just read it like an external drive, so you can just copy and paste your music and pictures to it. No need to sync it, no worries about your "library," just copy and paste.

[trurl]

I had a Zune for a while and loved the hardware, but the Zune software is even more bloated and heinous than iTunes. Which you would expect, I suppose.

[Brian]

Vinyl

[PeterG]

Its seems like people nowadays do not have time to play vinyl.

They have plenty of time, they just choose to do other things instead. I've spent most of today and yesterday listening to vinyl. Choosing to do other things with one's free time is not the same as not having time. I don't own an ipod or ipad or android phone.

[jkelman]

Even caring enough about music to listen actively, as opposed to listening while doing something else, is a niche.
Sad but true.

[Facelift]

Cds are well on the way to being finished. At the time they were great, because they gave you more versatility back in the era when physical media was the only option. But now that we're in the era when most people don't own music on physical media, vinyl gives you more of what you want physical media for. Many new LPs now have download codes so you can put the album on your computer, so it's win-win. CDs really just no longer make much sense, if you happen to own a turntable. And if you don't own a turntable -- think about getting one!

[PeterG]

The huge irony of the whole CD indestructable marketing "scam" back in the 80s has been that I've had dozens of CDs jump song, stop, pause, hop, repeat, refuse to play and everything else that could possibly go wrong due to fingerprints, dirt and scratches on the surface of the "indestructable" CD but rarely do I have a problem vinyl. Because it turns out after 30 years that CDs were harder to keep clean and scratchfree than vinyl.

Bye bye CD you will not be missed!

[spacefreak]

CDs really just no longer make much sense, if you happen to own a turntable. And if you don't own a turntable -- think about getting one!

The only sense they still have is that they can compensate (as physical medium) for limited storage space. This, from a vinyl freak that has increased his CD purchases for that reason.

[Scott Bails]

The huge irony of the whole CD indestructable marketing "scam" back in the 80s has been that I've had dozens of CDs jump song, stop, pause, hop, repeat, refuse to play and everything else that could possibly go wrong due to fingerprints, dirt and scratches on the surface of the "indestructable" CD but rarely do I have a problem vinyl. Because it turns out after 30 years that CDs were harder to keep clean and scratchfree than vinyl.

Bye bye CD you will not be missed!

The whole idea of the CD being "indestructible" was that it didn't degrade by the actual playing of it.

Every time the needle touches your vinyl, it degrades. Nothing touches the playing surface of a CD when it's played, so you don't have this issue.

Now, of course, years later we know that there are rare cases of CD rot, etc., but you really can't argue that vinyl is more durable than a CD. And I really don't understand your last statement at all.

[ronmac]

I agree that vinyl has more contact than a CD, but every time I place a CD into the drive in my car, it gets dragged across that felt edge in the slot. It's also touched by a laser.

I do agree that a pristine CD can be preserved longer than an LP. But, then again, the vinyl format has been around a hell of a lot longer, so it wins the longevity argument.

[Scott Bails]

I agree that vinyl has more contact than a CD, but every time I place a CD into the drive in my car, it gets dragged across that felt edge in the slot. It's also touched by a laser.

The felt edge that also serves as a light cleaning surface?


I do agree that a pristine CD can be preserved longer than an LP. But, then again, the vinyl format has been around a hell of a lot longer, so it wins the longevity argument.

That's like saying Progeezer beats me in the longevity argument because he's older than me (significantly older than me. ;)).

[ronmac]

A light cleaning surface that gets more brittle as the years go by. It's abrasive in that way. I see the hairline scratches all the time. But, the comment was in response to the notion of nothing touching the CD.

[Scott Bails]

Okay - good point.

[PeterG]

And I really don't understand your last statement at all.

I mean digital incompatibility with the real world of fingers, dirt and damage - a scratched, dirty, warped LP will still play no matter how seriously damaged it is, whereas often even a mildly dirty or scrathced CD wont.

[enpdllp]

A light cleaning surface that gets more brittle as the years go by. It's abrasive in that way. I see the hairline scratches all the time. But, the comment was in response to the notion of nothing touching the CD.

There are also CD changers that do not have the best handling mechanisms and leave marks on the CDs.

Another issue that most people are not aware is the the pits on a CD are closer to the label side than on the bottom side. In most cases a scratch on the bottom side of the CD can be repaired by a light resurfacing and/or polishing while the same type of scratch on the label side might leave you with a non-repairable CD.

[ronmac]

I have a Victrola and books of records from the late teens and they still play fine. Hell, I don't even need no 'lectricity. Just crank away, drop that wooden needed and listen.

[Ludovico]

I prefer Vinyl (It just sounds better ... when maintained properly etc.) although CD's are more practical and the media I use the most. I will (as long as I can) not buy downloads unless there is no choice.

[/URL]

I guess it depends, you said that some Magma albums sound better on CD.

[happytheman]

The thing is that now anybody has the option of making their own physical copy very cheaply and conveniently. Much more so than even cassettes. Personally, for the most enjoyable listening experience, I'd take analog vinyl all day long, but I also loved the convenience of CD's and the same goes with WAV or mp3. I rip a lot of stuff to my computer because that's where I'm usually listening. Being an old music seller, of course I miss the physical mediums and the brick & mortars, but the other thing about gettin' old in this age of technology is the joy of not having to leave your chair to buy and listen to an album. ;)
This pretty much sums it up for me as well.. I highly value my vinyl collection (1000+) but the pure convenience of digital has made me a lazy man.. My collection is in the basement and the rare times I'm down there to play ping pong with my wife we pull out a dozen or so albums to use as background music while we play.. otherwise my Zune holds a reasonable amount of memory (120 GB) so I have a nice selection of both music I've downloaded from a variety of "sites" as well as CD's I've ripped after purchasing them via Amazon.com (again simply because I have access to one record store within 100 miles and I just don't get into town that often.. convenience strikes again!)

[trurl]

Another side to this debate is the money factor... vinyl tends to equal high end and digital equals cheap in most people minds. Vinyl is a $5,000 turntable, electrostatic speakers, class A mono power amps... digital is an iPod with songs ripped at 128kbs. Well hey... put $10K into a digital system based around 192/24 audio and the same amps and speakers and it will kick almighty ass. If you like the sound of vinyl, the proper process can digitize that vinyl in such a way that it will sound identical in any blind test. You can have it all, sound and convenience. Just, what are you willing to put into it? For the record, I think you can accomplish that with fairly normal consumer equipment as far as ripping/storing. You can buy a stellar A -> D interface for far less than most decent turntables, let alone the lunatic fringe ones.

[Mikhael]

I've got off the vinyl bus. The RIAA restoration curve necessary to add the bass back in creates phase distortion, and the curve itself is not static; not every manufacturer uses the same curve. Between that, and the fact that each play of an album degrades the storage medium slightly, I've had enough of vinyl.

Add to that the fact that converters and filters for D/A conversion have gotten much better, and I'm in the digital camp. I'm actually in the 24/96 camp, and don't for the life of me understand why we're still at 16/44. If we can sell Blu-Ray, we can sell HD audio at 24/96.

[trurl]

If we can sell Blu-Ray, we can sell HD audio at 24/96.

Agreed- it used to be mainly a matter of media; it wouldn't hold enough data and high capacity was expensive. That's no longer the case...

[Digital_Man]

Ok, I have a question. I have a bunch of old albums, many of which are very scratched up and don't sound that great. If I bought one of those ION turntables and downloaded the vinyl to my computer would the sound improve or do you need special software to take away the pops and clicks?

[trurl]

Ok, I have a question. I have a bunch of old albums, many of which are very scratched up and don't sound that great. If I bought one of those ION turntables and downloaded the vinyl to my computer would the sound improve or do you need special software to take away the pops and clicks?

You can use software to remove pops and clicks, but unless it's very gently applied it will introduce artifacts of its own that are probably more objectionable than the source material was in the first place. If you were ripping to a lowish bitrate MP3 for iPod use it might not be a big deal.

[JKL2000]

VHS is warmer than DVD or Blu-Ray.

[Scott Bails]

VHS is warmer than DVD or Blu-Ray.

But not as warm as Beta. ;)

[trurl]

VHS is warmer than DVD or Blu-Ray.

Under certain circumstances. You can't say that as a given axiom. That said, if you have access to tape, an old Hi-Fi VHS tape deck makes an astonishingly good analog recorder. The flying heads give you a tape speed equivalent to an open reel deck running at something ridiculous- 500ips or something, I'd have to check :D

[rcarlberg]

Under certain circumstances. You can't say that as a given axiom. That said, if you have access to tape, an old Hi-Fi VHS tape deck makes an astonishingly good analog recorder. The flying heads give you a tape speed equivalent to an open reel deck running at something ridiculous- 500ips or something, I'd have to check :DStill not a good as the PCM of a digicamcorder though.

[JKL2000]

But not as warm as Beta. ;)

True - reel-to-reel video is the warmest of course.


Under certain circumstances. You can't say that as a given axiom. That said, if you have access to tape, an old Hi-Fi VHS tape deck makes an astonishingly good analog recorder. The flying heads give you a tape speed equivalent to an open reel deck running at something ridiculous- 500ips or something, I'd have to check :D

I'm talking only about the video.

[trurl]

Ah- I missed it :)

[ronmac]

I have a BetaMax that still works. Juts recently disconnected it after I bought a new TV. Beta Hi-Fi was the first digital audio recorder commercially available.

[A. Scherze]

But not as warm as Beta. ;)

Which is not as warm as U-matic. ;)

[ronmac]

Which is not as warm as U-matic. ;)

Which doesn't compare to cylinders.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/EdisonPhonograph.jpg/200px-EdisonPhonograph.jpg

[Mikhael]

Okay, if we keep this up, my cat is gonna run for the hills next time I break a string on my classical...

[A. Scherze]

Which doesn't compare to cylinders.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/EdisonPhonograph.jpg/200px-EdisonPhonograph.jpg

What could be warmer than a wooden record?


"Laser-Cut Wooden Records Give New Meaning to ‘Tree Rings’":

http://www.wired.com/design/2013/05/laser-cut-record/

[simon moon]

The condescension is getting pretty thick on this thread. :roll

[trurl]

Why in God's name is no one making glass records? It would seem the perfect material to me...

[JKL2000]

I'd like to hear a long piece of prog (like, ITCOTKC) on one of those music boxes with the metal cylinder with the bumps. That would be cool.

[A. Scherze]

Why in God's name is no one making glass records? It would seem the perfect material to me...

You know what would be cool?

A record made of ice.

Bazinga!

[ronmac]

Why in God's name is no one making glass records? It would seem the perfect material to me...

Until you dropped it.

[trurl]

Until you dropped it.

Well, vinyl isn't the most robust material in the world. Glass would be stronger under some conditions. Glass would hold up to thorough cleaning better, and not deteriorate from use. It would sound better, I'd think. I understand why vinyl got used back in the day- it was cheap and easy to mass produce. But it seems to me continued use is just a weird industrial inertia. It's a crap material. Glass might be a little silly (although cool for one-off high end collectables). But surely there's a more desirable material available now. Maybe the plastic they use in CD/DVD production.

[ronmac]

Well, vinyl isn't the most robust material in the world.

Perhaps, but the few LPs I dropped never broke. Interesting topic, though. I vote for diamond.

[trurl]

A glass disk about 1/4" thick would be pretty sturdy. It would weigh a damn ton though *lol* Of course, in turntable world that's a benefit as well. I wonder if anyone has experimented with metal disks.

[Scott Bails]

I wonder if anyone has experimented with metal disks.

I'd imagine Iron Maiden has. Maybe Metallica? Not sure how experimental they're considered to be. ;)

[A. Scherze]

There was something on PBS (I think it was with David Pogue) and they were examining glass that is super strong and/or super flexible.

[Scott Bails]

Gorilla Glass™, maybe?

[Jerjo]

A long vid on vinyl collecting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNRvB8lyRSM

[LongFrog]

I don't know about glass as an analog sound carrier. Glass is brittle; I imagine the stylus would grind against it a lot harder than does against the much more elastic vinyl. And the groove will eventually fill up with the fine glass powder, which has to be somewhat abrasive.

How about PVDF or PTFE? Would be a lot harder to scratch. I don't know how they behave when solidifying, though.

On a related subject, I seriously lament the demise of analog magnetic recording.

[trurl]

I don't know about glass as an analog sound carrier. Glass is brittle; I imagine the stylus would grind against it a lot harder than does against the much more elastic vinyl. And the groove will eventually fill up with the fine glass powder, which has to be somewhat abrasive.

How about PVDF or PTFE? Would be a lot harder to scratch. I don't know how they behave when solidifying, though.

On a related subject, I seriously lament the demise of analog magnetic recording.I forgot the stylus is diamond... yeah, that would be a problem. It still seems like there would be a better plastic than vinyl, like the ones you cite. As for magnetic tape, I still say there's nothing better in the world than HiFi VHS.

[ronmac]

As for magnetic tape, I still say there's nothing better in the world than HiFi VHS.

Except for hi-fi Beta.

[trurl]

Except for hi-fi Beta.

Either one really... it's probably a lot easier to get VHS tapes and decks, but I do agree Betamax was better in most respects. I've never encountered a hifi Beta deck; what are the specs like?

[A. Scherze]

How about a disc made from buckyballs and a laser stylus?


;)

[trurl]

Glass disc + laser stylus ought to be fairly unbeatable.

[ronmac]

Either one really... it's probably a lot easier to get VHS tapes and decks, but I do agree Betamax was better in most respects. I've never encountered a hifi Beta deck; what are the specs like?

Well, I actually have one, but I don't have the specs handy.

[LongFrog]

Glass disc + laser stylus ought to be fairly unbeatable.

I believe at one point the Japanese tried to replace a mechanical stylus with a laser beam (while using a vinyl record), but it didn't go very far because of the inevitable dust. A stylus will push a tiny speck of dust out of its way and will read almost nothing in the process, whereas for the laser's eye it would be indistinguishable from the legitimate pattern in the groove.

[trurl]

I believe at one point the Japanese tried to replace a mechanical stylus with a laser beam (while using a vinyl record), but it didn't go very far because of the inevitable dust. A stylus will push a tiny speck of dust out of its way and will read almost nothing in the process, whereas for the laser's eye it would be indistinguishable from the legitimate pattern in the groove.

It's still out there (the ELP??!! turntable). A glass album would hold up to very serious washing.

[LongFrog]

^ Two things, if I may:

#1. Are there many Stanisław Lem followers in Chattanooga?
#2. 'Do Not See Me Rabbit' is a treat; better than many albums I have been listening to lately, including ... er ... never mind :)

[trurl]

^ Two things, if I may:

#1. Are there many Stanisław Lem followers in Chattanooga?
#2. 'Do Not See Me Rabbit' is a treat; better than many albums I have been listening to lately, including ... er ... never mind :)

Thanks! I'm really glad you liked it... as for Lem, I'm probably the only one... read Cyberiad when I was about 12 and was hooked for life. I have almost all his stuff (I need to get busy and track down a couple of his later works...)

[Kim Olesen]

I believe at one point the Japanese tried to replace a mechanical stylus with a laser beam (while using a vinyl record), but it didn't go very far because of the inevitable dust. A stylus will push a tiny speck of dust out of its way and will read almost nothing in the process, whereas for the laser's eye it would be indistinguishable from the legitimate pattern in the groove.

Ahh that's why. I saw a vid of such a record player on youtube and it was every bit as noisy as a standard record player and i wondered why.

[Kim Olesen]

http://youtu.be/v0_uEQp2Vg8

Laser record player.

[A. Scherze]

Ahh that's why. I saw a vid of such a record player on youtube and it was every bit as noisy as a standard record player and i wondered why.

You're judging audio quality by a youtube video and a record of unknown quality??

Also, even if they were the same quality, the laser would not degrade the record each time that it is played.

[LongFrog]

You're judging audio quality by a youtube video and a record of unknown quality??

Also, even if they were the same quality, the laser would not degrade the record each time that it is played.

You may not be able to hear subtleties on YouTube, but you can sure notice it when a record is scratchy.

With a properly operating TT and gentle tracking force (I usually run 1.5 grams, but there used to be a Shure cartridge w. stylus that could do 0.75 grams) I think you need to play a record hundreds, if not thousand of times before you notice any wear. Dust accumulation and accidental damage are a lot more likely to shorten the record's useful life than the stylus-induced wear. Fortunately, those can be prevented and mitigated: records are meant to be cherished, so store it right, don't drop, don't grab with yer greasy fingers etc.

[Kim Olesen]

You're judging audio quality by a youtube video and a record of unknown quality??

Also, even if they were the same quality, the laser would not degrade the record each time that it is played.

I was talking about noise. NOT audio quality!

[A. Scherze]

Since when is noise not an aspect of sound quality?

Anyway, regarding the posted video, where is the audio coming from?

A microphone. Possibly, even one mounted on the camera. That mic is picking up room noise. Where is the "whooshing" coming from?
All the sounds are loud. When he puts down the adapter, when the drawer opens and closes, when he presses the buttons. Is the mic overloading its channel?

What about the record? Is it pristine or used?

So, we have a record of unknown quality played on the device through an audio system which is picked up by a mic of unknown quality and recorded in an unknown format which is converted by unknown software to whatever quality it is that is streamed on youtube.

And, to top it off, there is no A/B comparison.

So, while it is quite possible that the laser turntable is not equal to or better than a standard stylus, I am skeptical of making that determination because of this video.

[trurl]

^^^^^^^^^
It's a bit like TV ads that show you how great a TV looks... as you watch it on your TV... :D

[A. Scherze]

"Beer Bottle Meets 19th-Century Phonograph, Makes Beautiful Music"

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2013/06/beer-bottle-meets-19th-century-phonograph-makes-beautiful-music/

[rcarlberg]

Laser record player.There's also a fairly lengthy article about the Finial laser turntable on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable). I contributed to it.

[Digital_Man]

The last time I saw a laser turntable listed online you could only buy it from Japan and it costs about 10,000 dollars. Has any of that changed recently?

[rcarlberg]

Nope, that's all still accurate.


I saw a vid of such a record player on youtube and it was every bit as noisy as a standard record player and i wondered why. Also true. Although to be fair, the following "turntable noises" are eliminated in a laser turntable:
* rumble
* groove noise
* hum
* tracking error
* acoustic feedback from speakers
The only caveat about a laser TT is that it'll play exactly what's in the grooves -- whether it's music or dust. Even in theory, therefore, the ELP turntable can only *approach* the performance of a CD player, even under ideal ("clean lab"-level dust-free) conditions.

And vinyl collects static electricity, so "dust-free" is only a temporary condition.

The thing was never marketed as anything other than a high-priced novelty for rich old men with LP collections. A decent Rega wipes the floor with an ELP, for 1/10 the cost. Because, getting the music out of the grooves is still limited by the capabilities of vinyl -- which are about 1/10 the capabilities of CDs.

[Digital_Man]

After a little bit more research I think I'll pass(as far as the laser record player goes that is). I'm kind of lazy to begin with and apparently you have to clean your records more and take better care of them. Also, unless it's a brand new album the pops and clicks will be more pronounced(ie louder).

So here we have it. Cds aren't perfect. Vinyl isn't perfect. Mp3s suck if you are a collector. I'll probably get a turntable at some point but only after I get rid of all or most of my old vinyl and I'll play mostly new vinyl on it. I'll have a limited collection but every once in a while it will be cool to open up a gatefold cover and look at it for twenty minutes until it's time to flip over the album. :D

[rcarlberg]

I'll probably get a turntable at some point but only after I get rid of all or most of my old vinyl and I'll play mostly new vinyl on it. I'll have a limited collection but every once in a while it will be cool to open up a gatefold cover and look at it for twenty minutes until it's time to flip over the album. :DYou can have the nurse hold it for you. :)

[Digital_Man]

The same nurse that does that for you now? :)

[JKL2000]

I'll probably get a turntable at some point but only after I get rid of all or most of my old vinyl and I'll play mostly new vinyl on it. I'll have a limited collection but every once in a while it will be cool to open up a gatefold cover and look at it for twenty minutes until it's time to flip over the album. :D


You can have the nurse hold it for you. :)

LOL! Sorry, Digital Man, this was pretty funny. I WAS sort of imagining you with your vinyl gatefold in the bedroom at the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey or something.

[Adm.Kirk]

It depends on what the nurse looks like whether I'd let her hold it or not! :)

Bill

[trurl]

Hello, Nurse!!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101201200913/animaniacs/images/3/3e/Hello_Nurse4.jpg

[Digital_Man]

It depends on what the nurse looks like whether I'd let her hold it or not! :)

Bill


Exactly and it depends on what the "it" is that she's holding too. LOL.

[rcarlberg]

Exactly and it depends on what the "it" is that she's holding too. LOL.http://www.carepathways.com/eStore/LG/P70700x.jpg

[simon moon]

You may not be able to hear subtleties on YouTube, but you can sure notice it when a record is scratchy.

With a properly operating TT and gentle tracking force (I usually run 1.5 grams, but there used to be a Shure cartridge w. stylus that could do 0.75 grams) I think you need to play a record hundreds, if not thousand of times before you notice any wear. Dust accumulation and accidental damage are a lot more likely to shorten the record's useful life than the stylus-induced wear. Fortunately, those can be prevented and mitigated: records are meant to be cherished, so store it right, don't drop, don't grab with yer greasy fingers etc.

Very true.

Record wear, when played on good equipment, is nowhere near as big an issue as many think.

It's not just about tracking force. The shape of the stylus itself is more important. Modern stylus shapes contact much more of the groove, so the pressure is spread over a larger area.

Something like a Shibata, Micro Line or Hyperelliptical stylus can be tracked at 2 grams or more, and still cause substantially less wear than an elliptical tracking at under 1.5 grams.

[Digital_Man]

http://www.carepathways.com/eStore/LG/P70700x.jpg


You are on a roll.

[Rael]

Very true.

Record wear, when played on good equipment, is nowhere near as big an issue as many think.

It's not just about tracking force. The shape of the stylus itself is more important. Modern stylus shapes contact much more of the groove, so the pressure is spread over a larger area.

Something like a Shibata, Micro Line or Hyperelliptical stylus can be tracked at 2 grams or more, and still cause substantially less wear than an elliptical tracking at under 1.5 grams.

I know somebody who bought a single and made a recording as he played it the first time. He then played it 250 times (hopefully it was a good song) and then made another recording. There was no deterioration in sound quality whatsoever. He couldn't tell the difference between the first time it was played or the 250th. I don't know the guy personally, but I've corresponded with him quite a few times and trust his ears. I've just never bought into the myth that each time you play a record, it sounds a little worse than before. It makes me wonder what kind of styli people use to play their records with or how they have their turntables set up...

[JKL2000]

I hope that since vinyl has made a comeback, vinyl bootlegs will make a comeback too.

[rcarlberg]

I hope that since vinyl has made a comeback, vinyl bootlegs will make a comeback too.As soon as LP-Rs hit the market.

[ronmac]

Bring back TAKRL!

[JKL2000]

Bring back TAKRL!

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. Great Dane and Swinging Pig.

[A. Scherze]

http://www.jadedpunk.com/post/53366476976/this-vinyl-promo-mailer-is-amazing


Holy Shit, This Digital Vinyl Promo Mailer Is Amazing

http://media.tumblr.com/b5ede273a847bf9702da93e9bd2ad07f/tumblr_inline_monf74e4GS1qz4rgp.png

Holy shit, this is cool looking. This German record label, Kantor Records, realized that people were taking promo CDs and basically tossing them out the window at old people because kids hate compact discs. So they pressed their latest release on vinyl WHICH PLAYS WITH A SMARTPHONE.

While we don’t care about whatever shitty club music they’re promoting(it sounds like what you’d hear in an H&M dressing room), this is a great idea. It appeals both the old bastard side of us but also the side that is addicted to our iPhones. So if anyone wants to send us a Neurosis record on this thing, we wouldn’t hate that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCS5wgZWzE4

[ronmac]

That's nothing new.

Check this out

Extracting Audio from Pictures (http://mediapreservation.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/extracting-audio-from-pictures/)

[JKL2000]

> Holy Shit, This Digital Vinyl Promo Mailer Is Amazing

Uh, it's not actually playing the music FROM the vinyl, though, is it? Isn't it fetching the audio from somewhere else? It's kind of just a trick, I think.

[Garyhead]

You haven't REALLY heard Vinyl until you've heard it on a water-powered Turntable! :bad
1908

[Trane]

Just saw this morning on Euronews a feature on vinyl market... sources mostly from UK...

1- Vinyls are at their best level since 2003, which is a bit of a surprise, IMHO (I guess we're talking about an era where vinyl scratchers accounted for most of the sales)
2- vinyl sales are approaching or expected to reach in the next years the 1M copies/year mark
3- Despite that, vinyls still only account for 0.8% of all UK sales
4- But to show that CD sales are decreasing, the vinyl sales (remember level same as 2003) is up from 0.1 to 0.8% of total sales

[rcarlberg]

As soon as LP-Rs hit the market.

Bingo. Somebody gone done and did it.

https://www.wired.com/story/phonocut/

[Top Cat]

Wow, that's amazing..thanks for sharing this.

[rcarlberg]

18 songs that sound their best on vinyl (https://www.whathifi.com/features/18-songs-sound-their-best-vinyl)

Discuss.

[Zeuhlmate]

18 songs that sound their best on vinyl (https://www.whathifi.com/features/18-songs-sound-their-best-vinyl)

Discuss.

Rubbish.
You have some mastertapes, and someone decides that it should be an LP or a CD.
Different technical procedures, both can be awesome if done well.

If you dont have the mastertapes - but you can find an old pristine LP, then LP.

[moecurlythanu]

The idea that individual songs sound better in one format or another because they are those songs is nonsense. Might as well believe in voodoo.

[rcarlberg]

The idea that individual songs sound better in one format or another because they are those songs is nonsense. Might as well believe in voodoo.Kinda what I was thinking as well, but who knows. Maybe certain recordings are more "vinyl friendly"?

[jkelman]

If, with today’s analog to digital [and vice versa) technologies, if folks can’t make a cd sound better than vinyl, they’re doing something wrong. Beyond what I hear (don’t do vinyl anymore, so don’t follow it much) about “high res vinyl,” CDs have broader potential for frequency and dynamic range. So unless someone’s asleep at the switch...

...and while I can’t/won’t name names, some labels have affirmed this to me. Yes, they do vinyl because of demand, but they don’t believe it’s a better medium. Sorry!

[3LockBox]

1/4" tape is best

[ronmac]

1/4" tape is best

8-track

[3LockBox]

8-track true, no other format has that romantic "kerchunk kerchunk" in between programs.

[spacefreak]

As soon as LP-Rs hit the market.

Lathe-cuts are just this.
There are small scale labels/bands releasing lathe-cuts in limited runs and some are ultra collectible.