New Bay Area Prog Venue!

[Tributary Records]

Bay Area great Venue!

Some crazy folk just handed me the keys to the kingdom.
Looking to book Prog, Art Rock, Avant Guard or other unusual acts at our new club.
We have a great stage and sound that can handle just about anything.

If you are a serious band or act and looking for a Prog friendly venue, then shoot me a pm.

7897

[Steve F.]

^ ^ ^

Question one:

What size is your venue and where is it?

[notallwhowander]

I want to know what Steve wants to know.

[Tributary Records]

^ ^ ^

Question one:

What size is your venue and where is it?

We are in Vallejo CA, We have ferry access and Bay Transit walking distance from the Venue. We can hold 300 in the venue no problem. We also have access to the large Masonic Ballroom upstairs if we need a bigger space. 500 in there.

They asked me to book acts for them, I told them ok, but want complete autonomy... which they agreed to. While they need to make money as everyone does, it's not their driving factor. It's an art space, gallery etc.

It's also a good sounding room. I'll post a recording of a gig from a month ago when I get a chance.

We have ManifestiV playing tonight. They are on tour and passing through.
I would like to book as much Prog and Art Rock stuff as possible while I have the keys to the kingdom.

[Steve F.]

MUCH too large for us, sadly.

Thanks for the info.

[Shadow]

MUCH too large for us, sadly.

Thanks for the info.

Sometimes Orion is too large for some acts. Maybe they could put up particians to make a smaller venue.

[Tributary Records]

MUCH too large for us, sadly.

Thanks for the info.

It's very often just 30 to 50 people. It's not theater seating. Most shows are smaller numbers with couches etc for events. The stage actually works sideways across the room, so for bigger events, it can spread out... but it is a more intimate setting feel. It's not too big for any band I can assure you..but if there were advanced ticket sales in the hundreds, then we can move the event upstairs into the Masonic Ballroom which is huge.

You could think of it as a full size pro stage for a coffee house style event.

We also have a smaller room on the 4th floor looking over the SF Bay.. just beautiful that we have had acoustic shows with just 20 people.

We can cover it all...up to about 400.

[Tributary Records]

Tonight's show "ManifestiV was a good show, very theatrical. I guess Goth Rock Electronica with two live performers playing along with laptop feeds would best describe.

We are not set up for electronica events which seem to need 1000 watts driving massive subs to get the low end coming out of a laptop. Digital music seems to really fall apart on the low frequencies. Having a real bassist seems better to me... and a real drummer.

Blending live playing with computer samples or pre programmed beats has been going on now for decades. It's not new, it's not even trendy. It sounds tired, lifeless and sterile to my ears. Trying to get a low end fullness to computer samples was a strain on our system even with four 15" speakers on the stage. They wanted more bass so much that they gave up vocal clarity to run the whole mix through an extra amp right into the subs. So we had a muffled bassy sounding vocal palate so they could get that fullness on the low end... which they got fairly well.... but with a price. It's what they wanted.

Other than that, they were a very good act. Great theatrics and good songs. I see potential with them.

I think our next act is a jazz fusion band, so we will have great sound again. No need for subs or laptops.

[Shadow]

Tonight's show "ManifestiV was a good show, very theatrical. I guess Goth Rock Electronica with two live performers playing along with laptop feeds would best describe.

We are not set up for electronica events which seem to need 1000 watts driving massive subs to get the low end coming out of a laptop. Digital music seems to really fall apart on the low frequencies. Having a real bassist seems better to me... and a real drummer.

Blending live playing with computer samples or pre programmed beats has been going on now for decades. It's not new, it's not even trendy. It sounds tired, lifeless and sterile to my ears. Trying to get a low end fullness to computer samples was a strain on our system even with four 15" speakers on the stage. They wanted more bass so much that they gave up vocal clarity to run the whole mix through an extra amp right into the subs. So we had a muffled bassy sounding vocal palate so they could get that fullness on the low end... which they got fairly well.... but with a price. It's what they wanted.

Other than that, they were a very good act. Great theatrics and good songs. I see potential with them.

I think our next act is a jazz fusion band, so we will have great sound again. No need for subs or laptops.

How many people showed, that is paying people.

[Paulrus]

Best of luck to you, but you're going to need a lot of promotional effort to draw crowds for prog gigs. I was involved with doing the same thing down on the other end of the Bay Area -- in Fremont -- back in the 1990s. We did OK, but we were able to tap into a decent sized South Bay audience. The Vallejo/ north Bay Area hasn't exactly been a hot bed of prog activity over the years (though weren't Cairo sort of from that region?)

[Tributary Records]

How many people showed, that is paying people.

I think about 30 people, but I was not working the ticket box. I think everyone was surprised they didn't have more because they are a young act that is all over social media, touring and playing back in their home town. They had a DJ who showed up after the show (not my booking) and everyone left after the concert and he then just packed up. I felt bad for him.

That being said, what I want to do is put in the best music I can, quality, good players, good acts who want a place to play on a somewhat regular basis so they have a chance to develop their craft. The scene here is usually pretty supportive of the more creative acts. There was a Prog show a while back, a local keyboardist with a full band doing all original stuff and they packed the place at $15 a head. I think they cleared about 2K.

I'm not sure people here are so in love with DJ's and electronica like right in SF. I'm certainly not. If I have a good live act coming in, I won't book in a DJ or electronica act in front of them regardless of what they say they will draw. Not the vision here. There are plenty of other venues or warehouses for that stuff.
We need better venues for live players, not just pushed off into the corner of some bar or in a cafe with no stage etc. Someone has to stand up and say no.
I'll do this till they throw me out!

[Tributary Records]

Best of luck to you, but you're going to need a lot of promotional effort to draw crowds for prog gigs. I was involved with doing the same thing down on the other end of the Bay Area -- in Fremont -- back in the 1990s. We did OK, but we were able to tap into a decent sized South Bay audience. The Vallejo/ north Bay Area hasn't exactly been a hot bed of prog activity over the years (though weren't Cairo sort of from that region?)

I wish I could book only Prog and Art Rock etc... lol... but I am quite aware that the audience for that is small, and not a lot of bands doing that. The band last night would have been great if they had a good drummer and bassist. They had great costumes and they were excellent performers. The music was dark and interesting.
Call me old fashion, but getting rid of a drummer and bassist and keyboardist and using a laptop instead to me is just Karaoke.... just dreadful. In my opinion, it is really holding this band back. Not sure they see it... even The Cure had a live rhythm section. Radiohead does as well right? Can't afford it? Probably, but there are still plenty of bands touring.

I'll book good folk acts, Reggae, R and B, World music, Jazz, and put them all on the same bill if needed. The good thing about where we are at is the lower rents.
Artists and clubs can do what they want here. SF, there is so much pressure to pay the bills they just can't afford the luxury of booking stuff that doesn't draw well.

I was reading the band submission page for "Bottom of the Hill" in SF and it's basically they don't want you to play unless you have 10,000 social media followers.
I couldn't give a rats ass about that stuff. If the group is good, I want them. If they sound like crap but have 100K facebook fans, good for them. They can play Bottom of the Hill but not here. We have a better stage anyway, and parking is a breeze. Much cooler vibe up here IMHO.

[Tributary Records]

Here is from "Bottom of the Hill"


Remember to be patient with us because we get a large volume of inquiries. In your email, tell us the name of your band, the style of your band, where you live, how long you have been a band, and send links to your music, not downloads. We want to see that you have a web presence: official band website if you have one, Facebook account, YouTube videos of your shows, bandcamp or SoundCloud, and anything else that gives us your history and your sound as a band. You can tell us previous bands your members have been in and what kinds of bands you have been paired with in the past. Also, let us know what venues in San Francisco you have played. Let us know how many people you would expect to be able to bring out on a Tuesday or a Wednesday night. Tell us what your fan base is like: are they under 21 for the most part, and can’t stay out past 10PM on a school night? Or are they in their 30s and drink like fishes on any night of the week? Let us know what your stage show is like: energetic and lots of dancers? Or a laptop and a table and just you?



WHAT ABOUT BOOKING OUT-OF-TOWN BANDS?

For out-of-town bands playing for the first time (and this includes the North and South Bay and Sacramento and Santa Cruz, etc.,) we’ll be honest, it’s very difficult to get booked on our stage without the advocacy of a label or booking agent. We need to know that you have local draw, whether that be through having played on tours around town for years and built up your fan base the old-fashioned way, or getting a promotional push from your management. Or maybe you have just garnered a lot of national attention from having a big presence online. But you need to demonstrate to us that you can motivate your San Francisco fans to come see you. Merely being willing to flyer around town, we have found, or do a radio spot, is not really going to be enough.

To me, this sums up everything that is wrong with the music scene today. This is considered one of the best places to play in SF (not my opinion) for start up groups, and they clearly couldn't give a crap about the quality of the act, only if it draws well off social media etc. They are not likely to book out of town acts?
I mean this is embarrassing. I would boycott this place just for them saying that. What a bunch of crap. They are basically saying if it's just you and a laptop with a good draw, they'll take that over a good out of town band looking to play in a new area.

[Paulrus]

I wish I could book only Prog and Art Rock etc... lol... but I am quite aware that the audience for that is small, and not a lot of bands doing that...


What might help you is the fact there are some prog -- or at least prog-ish -- folks who are active not far from you down in the Oakland/Berkeley area. MoeTar, Amy X Neuberg, Barry Cleveland, whatever-became-of-Sleepytime-Gorilla-Museum... even Fred Frith pops up from time to time. If you can tap into that crowd and let it be known you have a venue you may get some bites.

[Tributary Records]

What might help you is the fact there are some prog -- or at least prog-ish -- folks who are active not far from you down in the Oakland/Berkeley area. MoeTar, Amy X Neuberg, Barry Cleveland, whatever-became-of-Sleepytime-Gorilla-Museum... even Fred Frith pops up from time to time. If you can tap into that crowd and let it be known you have a venue you may get some bites.

I'd like to think some of those folk post here from time to time or may even stop by here regularly! I would hope so. Also touring Prog or Art Rock bands looking for a good Bay Area venue. It's less than an hour from SF, less than an hour from San Jose, and less than and hour from Sacramento. This is a great location for anyone interested in seeing good music. Some good places to eat downtown as well.. and the transit drops one off at the venue doorstep.

Would love to see this be the new hub for Bay Area art rock and Prog. We are set up to do it. Build it and they will come?

I see some of these Prog bands playing really crap venues. This gives a proper staging for a good show, and we have a good crowd here of art minded people. Sometimes I think better than SF. In fact, most of the folk who regular downtown used to live in SF and got tired of being ripped off paying absurd rents etc.
Parking is a nightmare in the city also. Here? Just drive up and parking is everywhere. No meters, none of that crap.

I'm also looking at having a house Hammond organ onstage here soon. A real one. Sorry folks, but they sound way better than the sampled ones.

[Progbear]

MoeTar are playing a local music festival in Petaluma, so they could definitely drop in for a live show.

I’d be down for showing up for this, as I’ve been starved for local live shows since the glory days of the Exposé Concert Series. Make this happen!

[Tributary Records]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0jTiJAPKb4
"Bindi's Wild Adventure" played here on April 2nd. Great turnout and a fantastic show. The band played for 2 1/2 hours without a break. The show was recorded on an 8 track reel to reel and 6 pieces were picked for a live album. Two days later it was mixed down in town and a copy was requested by DJ Billy Innes from Ozcat Radio 89.5 (a real radio station). He was at the show and couldn't believe he was seeing a reel to reel spinning on the stage. On Thursday April 7th, he played 3 tracks on the radio and just couldn't believe he was playing something he saw live just days before. Then he played the whole concert album on the Sunday show. Then the next week he played the whole album again. That's the kind of vibe we have here. Total support from the community.... artists, venue, radio. This is the kind of world we like living in here.

ps: if you love the jazzy Wes Montgomery stuff, this guitarist David El) just rips a phenomenal guitar solo around 5:40 into this clip.
Believe me, it's worth a listen! He grew up in the Brooklyn NY jazz scene and ended up in this band (long story) along with Richard Marriott on T bone who some might remember was the founder of Clubfoot Orchestra back in the day. The whole thing just live and raw and the crowd digging it. They will be playing again at The Hub here in a couple weeks Sat July 23rd. If anyone is around the Bay then.

[Tributary Records]

7915

ManifestiV at The Hub July 2nd 2016

[Tributary Records]

7916

7917

[stickman393]

As fellow bay-area resident, this makes me want to form a band.

I'll be watching the event calendar closely.
http://thehubvallejo.com/

[Tributary Records]

As fellow bay-area resident, this makes me want to form a band.

I'll be watching the event calendar closely.
http://thehubvallejo.com/

I assume you play Stick? Would be great to have you out... play solo or put a band together quickly and get over here!
Nothing would make us happier than to have this be a hub for interesting acts to come and play.
Like I said before, I don't know how long this will last (6 months for sure) so the sooner the better.
I know there are a lot of 3 chord indie rock bands that want to play. I've been getting interest from a few already, some down in LA and Sac... but I have more ambitious plans! lol

Just added two more 15" speakers to the back line last night. I'm not necessarily looking for volume, but more fullness and richness from the stage.

I had a rock singer and guitarist.... and a jazz guitarist out last night and they both loved the sound we were getting on stage. I have things set up the old cabaret way with back mains and side fills... so the advantage of this is that what you hear on stage as a player is much more accurate to what the audience is hearing as well. It also greatly simplifies the whole stage set up sonically. I'm more on the side of clarity and fidelity than just a decibel push.

Later this week I am installing four direct boxes at the front of the stage to match up with the four vocal mics up front, so an artist can sing and play their instrument with the option of either miked, or direct .... or a combination of both.

[Tributary Records]

Been getting a few bands interested in playing our venue, mostly indie rock stuff. Apparently the latest trend is to shove the drummer and bassist into a laptop to save money? Four bands I listened to today sent me electronic press kits with videos of them playing to a pre recorded rhythm section and sound effects. They are boasting about playing all these famous venues,
House of Blues, The Whiskey, various festivals etc....

Is this the new trend? Is this happening in Prog also?

Not sure what I should be expecting. Would sure like to book some interesting stuff... but I prefer live players.

[Baribrotzer]

To Tributary Records:

Contact the band Haken (not sure how). They're touring the US and Canada, and appear to have an empty date for the Bay Area.

[regenerativemusic]

I wonder how many people go to something like a Journey tribute band show? I have an old childhood friend who is doing that now. Maybe it could be mixed up since classic rock and prog aren't too far away in some people's minds. Like have a prog band open for the bigger draw.

[Paulrus]

Is this the new trend? Is this happening in Prog also?


I wouldn't say it's a new trend because people have been doing it for years. But it certainly is a way for folks to get some kind of experience playing live without having to deal with the hassle of finding bandmates and rehearsing. And they pocket more money at the end of the gig. Given today's music climate that's a big factor IMO.

From my experience you don't see it so much in prog except in the Guitar Craft circles where you sometimes have a Chapman Stick player or two and they need some kind of rhythmic backing for their stuff. Another example is the duo Janel and Anthony (on Cuneiform), a guitarist and cellist. But the fact that there's no rhythm section doesn't detract one iota from the quality of their live performances.

[Tributary Records]

I wonder how many people go to something like a Journey tribute band show? I have an old childhood friend who is doing that now. Maybe it could be mixed up since classic rock and prog aren't too far away in some people's minds. Like have a prog band open for the bigger draw.

It's easy to understand why tribute bands get booked so often. It's like picking the ripe low hanging fruit. You'll get the many of the fans of that artist.

However, I think there is a greater need for a venue that supports the original music scene. There is a lot of interesting music out there that is being overlooked... I want to support them.... and at the same time they need to support us. It's a give and take situation.

From my observation, the live music scene in general is weakening. Venues are closing. The youth culture seems more interested in electronica, DJ's and hip hop. They like the scene. People attract people. Pretty girls everywhere etc. Flashy marketing.

Generally there is more embracing of the digital arts. It's like comparing a painter to a piece done in photoshop. It it what it is.

The majority of live bands are going the indie rock route. It's mostly very predictable. Simple beats with distorted guitars avoiding melody. The only melody is in the vocal line with the music trading off between light and heavy.

Personally I am much more "moved" by a quality live band that is working as a unit to serve the music and also understand that being on stage should also be visual entertainment. You can have both. I see a lot of acts who are technically brilliant but give the visual no attention. Then of course the opposite.

The great prog bands I saw growing up did both. Yes and Nektar had great light shows and costumes. Certainly Genesis. Tull was very theatrical. ELP had great showmanship. Floyd of course had lights and props and extravagant sound systems.

A lot of jazz fails with too much self indulgent soloing that is not serving the music. People do want to be entertained.
Elvis and James Brown understood that. The R and B bands back in the day had great costumes and movement choreography.

If people are not going to be dancing, then you need to give them something else. I liked that about the ManifestiV show.
They were very visually entertaining. It would have been much better with a good bassist and drummer on board... even to add to that.

[Sputnik]

However, I think there is a greater need for a venue that supports the original music scene.I don't have much to add to all of this, as we've on the east coast. But I'll just say props to you for having this attitude and taking this approach. You're definitely swimming against the current on this one in almost uncountable ways. But I wish you every success and hope that people in the Bay area support the venture.

It was hard to virtually impossible to keep a ~35 seat venue vibrant in the Boston area, and that eventually closed (though not strictly due to low attendance). The scene is just so fragmented, it's hard to get any kind of critical mass but for the biggest name artists. So best of luck to you, and if we're in SF I'll definitely try to stop by and check it out!

Bill

[Tributary Records]

I don't have much to add to all of this, as we've on the east coast. But I'll just say props to you for having this attitude and taking this approach. You're definitely swimming against the current on this one in almost uncountable ways. But I wish you every success and hope that people in the Bay area support the venture.

It was hard to virtually impossible to keep a ~35 seat venue vibrant in the Boston area, and that eventually closed (though not strictly due to low attendance). The scene is just so fragmented, it's hard to get any kind of critical mass but for the biggest name artists. So best of luck to you, and if we're in SF I'll definitely try to stop by and check it out!

Bill


Thanks Bill,

I'm aware of the improbable nature of such a task!

Hunting down Prog bands and trying to get them out of their bedrooms or garages won't be easy. One artist (keys, and very good) I talked to was extremely excited but he can't find a drummer who is competent enough to play odd meters and dedicated enough to engage the effort needed for his sophisticated compositions.
It does seem that drumming often is the limiting factor... as to bring it into rock. Most of the guys who could walk into such a gig are playing jazz, or metal.
I've always said the jazz guys can do it, but won't because it's not jazz! The rock guys often want to, but can't or don't have the technical ability. In the classic sense, a true Prog rock drummer is a rare breed. A lot of metal drummers can play complex stuff driving the downbeat etc... but lack the ability to articulate a more dynamic approach and play into melody while maintaining the ability to finesse their way through both the up beat, downbeat and swing the music in places like the great Prog drummers of the past did so effortlessly. A lot of those guys of course went into fusion as well.

I know I am of the unusual opinion that classic Prog actually created a new genre of music just as classical, jazz, blues, reggae, folk, metal etc... did. The problematic situation was in the labeling of it "progressive" which most took to and felt that it was necessary for it to progress in a way that it actually left itself behind.

I like going to a traditional jazz gig, and see what is going on, feeling the music and enjoying the players working through both standards and original pieces based upon a "jazz" approach to the music. It doesn't need to be "ever changing or progressive" to be enjoyable for what it is anymore than it does buying a ticket to the Opera or the Symphony. I don't need a laptop on stage acting as a Karaoke sideman making it seem "modern, hip, or trendy".

I have a guy from SF I am going to book in the fall who is doing electronica, but is using all analog synths, oscillators etc who will be performing everything in real time. Those analog feeds into the house system will sound fantastic. Trying to take a feed off a laptop into the mains sounds dreadful unless you have thousands of watts of power to drive huge subs etc which is the "modern" trend of extreme inefficiency IMHO. We'll get a huge sound running analog feeds through the six 15" woofers that are on the stage right now.

[Sputnik]

I know I am of the unusual opinion that classic Prog actually created a new genre of music just as classical, jazz, blues, reggae, folk, metal etc... did. The problematic situation was in the labeling of it "progressive" which most took to and felt that it was necessary for it to progress in a way that it actually left itself behind.I could not agree with you more, and I think this is the root of many of our troubles. At this stage, I don't think the problem is solvable, so you kind of have to work around it as best you can. As I said, good luck, it's an uphill battle.

Bill

[stickman393]

.. Trying to take a feed off a laptop into the mains sounds dreadful unless you have thousands of watts of power to drive huge subs etc which is the "modern" trend of extreme inefficiency IMHO.

That's got to be dependent on the style/production of the music, and not something specific to laptop or computer audio interfaces, surely?
If not, then I expect some kind of frequency range limiter on the way into the PA is required for protection if nothing else. I might also be talking out my sub-woofer.

[Tributary Records]

That's got to be dependent on the style/production of the music, and not something specific to laptop or computer audio interfaces, surely?
If not, then I expect some kind of frequency range limiter on the way into the PA is required for protection if nothing else. I might also be talking out my sub-woofer.

The ManifestiV show was to me, basically an electronica act. Our club does have these giant subs each with a pair of 20" cones. Just takes a ton of juice to drive those things to get that mammoth bassy thump the kids love. The guy who owns those things is basically just storing them there, but didn't leave his 4000 watt amp to drive them. Our 400 watt amp drives the existing set up fine for PA purposes and that room which isn't huge. We also didn't have a speakon cable handy.
I didn't book the ManifestiV show as it was handed to me from the former guy who booked them last March.

Point being that when I ran the laptop into the board and then into the mains, it sounded pretty flat compared to what an actual bassist and drummer would have been able to fill the room with. We jacked it up the best we could with as much low end as the system could handle and it sounded decent, but the vocals were running through that same setting and sounded dreadful to me. But that is what they wanted.. the band wanted that.

We also have an all analog studio in a 1000 square foot space with tape reels, tube amps etc, and anytime I run a digital signal path through the board there it's the same truncated sound compared to either vinyl or reel to reel. The same sound coming off the laptop at the club..... just sounds awful even running through solid state amp. But a vocal, or acoustic guitar, or even an electric bass sounds fantastic running the same signal path.

Not looking to diverge this into a digital vs analog debate. Just sayin....

[stickman393]

>> Not looking to diverge this into a digital vs analog debate

Agreed. Thanks for explaining the background, Trib.

[Tributary Records]

Tonight,
Bindi's Wild Adventure
CD Release Volume 1 (April 2nd 2016 show)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0jTiJAPKb4

Will be recording tonight on a 16 track Reel to Reel tape machine. Will be mixed down Monday and played on radio by this weekend! (OZCAT 89.5)

Anyone in the Bay Area wanting to come up. "The Hub" in Vallejo.

[Tributary Records]

I could not agree with you more, and I think this is the root of many of our troubles. At this stage, I don't think the problem is solvable, so you kind of have to work around it as best you can. As I said, good luck, it's an uphill battle.

Bill

We actually drew 3 times the crowd as the Hip Hop show did the night before. We also drew better than the last couple alternative rock crowds. The guys in the band were pretty shocked to be handed a nice envelop of cash at the end of the night. Sold a stack of CD's also that were of the last show played there back in April. So the plan is to record each show, then release that recording at the following show. A lot of good feedback on that idea.

So with the new record shop, the radio station and the venue all within walking distance from one another. The stage is set for the next great Bay Area music scene to emerge. Come join us!

[rapidfirerob]

I sincerely hope this flies. I live in Richmond and would come to see interesting music. I hope more fusion shows happen in the future.
I just liked The Hub's Facebook page. I hope you post on the page. Here it is: https://www.facebook.com/TheHubVallejo/

[Tributary Records]

8158

Had a really cool old school band playing original western music Friday night. The guitarist actually used to play in a well known Bay Area Prog band. It was very refreshing to hear lap steel guitar, Chet Atkins style playing along with those traditional western grooves behind her beautiful voice. There was no country twang in there, more like Annie Haslam singing western music.

It reminded me how much influence guitarists like Atkins and Travis had on players like Howe, Barre and even Gilmore. It's those kind of diverse influences that made earlier Prog more interesting to my ears than a lot of the more single focused derivative metal playing that goes on today. There are a lot of great chops players around now, but it feels like many of them have been studying the same scales and fingering patterns.

It's good news I have no more prior commitments to fulfill from former booking agents to honor. The guy who booked the pop rock cover band Sat night and refused to let me add on a national touring prog band is now gone. His band didn't even draw well, so that gives me more clearance to book the so called "unpopular" music genres like art rock and prog, avant etc.

[Esoteric]

whats the tech spec on desk/PA and monitors etc-- can it be seated at all? and size of stage.(important for some Prog bands) Is it an easy load in/load out-- that kind of stuff is really useful to know--website doesnt have any of that and really relevant for a lot of Prog bands who arent simple show up and plug in.