Perceptions of PE

[Sean]

I'm curious how you think the outside world perceives PE. I've heard mixed reviews. Curious your take.

[Trane]

Mmmhhh!!!!...

the previous PE was generally regarded wearily by the PA Admins... For years, there was a Collab Zone PE threads monitoring what was said about PA by then-PA haters on PE... The fact that many collabs started more or less posting more here than there (my case) did little to calm spirits.... But it's all long-gone history... And that behind-the-scene thread hasn't been posted on for years, and since PE regularly features PA reviews, it implies a normalization on both sides... I wouldn't call it a long love-story between the two sites, but everything is cool... let's be careful about cobblestones thrown in sleeping marsh waters, though ;)

As for the PA lambda users, PE is seen as somewhat clique-ish, requiring a much greater prog-knowledge to "meddle in" in specific threads (PA being more of an entry-level site for beginners), and often a much better mastery of English to survive on its forum

Most of my French-speakling prog buddies admit they don't have sufficient English to post on PE, but some have on PA.... But then again, most prog lurkers look at the database instead of the forum.... and PA's near exhaustiveness is only surpassed by the general site RYM

[Sean]

Mmmhhh!!!!...

PE regularly features PA reviews, it implies a normalization on both sides... I wouldn't call it a long love-story between the two sites, but everything is cool... let's be careful about cobblestones thrown in sleeping marsh waters, though ;)

I have been friends with Maxime over there for a few years. If the guys that run the places get along I would figure that would be the case down the line. Hope so anyway. The prog world's big enough for the two of us and then some.

[polmico]

My wife thinks we are nerds.

[Sean]

We should start a site for prog wives. And YES, they exist!

[zombywoof]

As for the PA lambda users, PE is seen as somewhat clique-ish, requiring a much greater prog-knowledge to "meddle in" in specific threads (PA being more of an entry-level site for beginners), and often a much better mastery of English to survive on its forum

That, I think, is a huge compliment.

[Progmatic]

We should start a site for prog wives. And YES, they exist!

NO site for wifes, for godness sake, :O....ignorance is blessed....I have enough on my plate to justify my piles of CDs around the house...now I would have to explain myself why I got involved into silly music discussions...:lol

[NogbadTheBad]

I don't think much of the outside world knows we are here outside of the previously mentioned PA members.

[Sean]

I was thinking of more of a prog-wife support group. LOL

[Sean]

I don't think much of the outside world knows we are here outside of the previously mentioned PA members.

I was talking about the prog scene's players, artists, mgt, and fans. Nothing beyond that. The rest of the world is oblivious to us and prog too. And don't think the prog scene starts and stops here, there's many who lurk we are never aware of. I am curious what they think too.

[zombywoof]

Honestly, I hadn't even heard of this place until a FB friend of mine sent me the link. I was put off at first by the low tech nature of it (I was like 16 at the time), so I signed up for an account anyway, but never came back. It wasn't until last summer when I got tired of PA's lack of NEARfest discussion (or interest for that matter), when I thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if that other place has anything to say about it?". So, I went back through old messages, found the link, and to my surprise, found out that I already had an account. I tried a common password with my username and I was instantly logged it. I've since left PA and hung out here. People are friendlier and are actually willing to engage in discussions (unlike PA users who have a habit of sharing their opinion and ignoring others) and I've found that it's generally less nitpicky and more open-minded here. Eventually, I grew used to the low tech site (it had a charm do it) and never looked back.

[Trane]

Originally Posted by Trane

As for the PA lambda users, PE is seen as somewhat clique-ish, requiring a much greater prog-knowledge to "meddle in" in specific threads (PA being more of an entry-level site for beginners), and often a much better mastery of English to survive on its forum
That, I think, is a huge compliment.

In a way, it is... Though PE could be called elitist by a lot PA'ers (just like a lot of PE'ers think of the Gnosis bunch)... and some here show it (elitism) by looking down at PA's noobie-ness

[Sean]

We have been called worse by some of the artists we discuss. The fact that we offer both sides of the coin when it comes to musical discussion has endeared us to some and disgusted & "horrified" others.

[Trane]

Honestly, I hadn't even heard of this place until a FB friend of mine sent me the link. I was put off at first by the low tech nature of it (I was like 16 at the time), but I signed up for an account anyway, but never came back. It wasn't until last summer when I got tired of PA's lack of NEARfest discussion (or interest for that matter), when I thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if that other place has anything to say about it?". So, I went back through old messages, found the link, and to my surprise, found out that I already had an account. I tried a common password with my username and I was instantly logged it. I've since left PA and hung out here. People are friendlier and are actually willing to engage in discussions (unlike PA users who have a habit of sharing their opinion and ignoring others) and I've found that it's generally less nitpicky and more open-minded here. Eventually, I grew used to the low tech site (it had a charm do it) and never looked back.

Interesting points, but I'm sure your realize that PA crowd is much more international (though you wouldn't know it by looking at the "general discussions" topics section >> everything seems to relate to US or UK stuff, as it is here in PE), while here (PE again), the vast majority of the membership is North American.

[zombywoof]

In a way, it is... Though PE could be called elitist by a lot PA'ers (just like a lot of PE'ers think of the Gnosis bunch)... and some here show it (elitism) by looking down at PA's noobie-ness

I don't really see PE as being that elitist. I don't see a sign here that says, "No noobs!", it just may come off that way, because we cater to a crowd that has heard at least the majority of the classics, hence why we are called Progressive Ears! :-)

I'm not familiar with enough with Gnosis to comment. Maybe I'll have to journey over and see what they are all about...

[zombywoof]

We have been called worse by some of the artists we discuss. The fact that we offer both sides of the coin when it comes to musical discussion has endeared us to some and disgusted & "horrified" others.

I think the fact that many artists hang out here speaks volumes. I don't think I've ever seen an artist take part in discussions outside of promotional purposes on PA.

[Trane]

I think the fact that many artists hang out here speaks volumes. I don't think I've ever seen an artist take part in discussions outside of promotional purposes on PA.

there is a French site I participate in (not music), and the amount of artistes hanging around is always surprising me.... I'm not that sure it's that much a good thing, though... I somehow have to review the way I state a viewpoint as to make sure I don't hurt him/her needlessly...

[arabicadabra]

I joined right after ProgDay 2008 because someone told me "if you want the honest, unadulterated truth about how your band went down, go to a place called Progressive Ears".

[Sean]

Was it ever mean spirited? Ever seen someone cut to shreds and left for dead?

[Scott Bails]

I had an account at PA a long time ago and really didn't care for their forum. Between the insane signature sizes, poor English (no offense to anyone, it's just hard to read), and the general tone of the place, I didn't last long.

This, to me, has the perfect blend of variety, camaraderie, and information for me. :)

[arabicadabra]

I personally haven't - and with our keyboard rig completely crapping out and our bassist having to decide in real time how and what to play on his bass to cover the missing keys, I half expected to get savaged. But it didn't happen.

[Sean]

Meanwhile some artists think we are Satan. What gives?

[zombywoof]

Some artists need to come to terms with the fact that once they release something, they are opening it up for public criticism. If they can't live with that, they need to find a new profession.

[NogbadTheBad]

Well we've had a few adverse reactions from artists, the whole Geoff Downes thing springs to mind. Typically in most threads you'll get plenty of back and forth, and if an artists only wants positive reviews they'd probably need to stay away from here. I've only really found a few of the known trolls to be particularly over the top nasty.

[progeezer]

We have been called worse by some of the artists we discuss. The fact that we offer both sides of the coin when it comes to musical discussion has endeared us to some and disgusted & "horrified" others.Didn't Abe Lincoln say something about that?:)

I can't offer an objective opinion, because PE has come to mean a great deal to me. I don't & won't do FB or any other social media (other than email), since for me that's more than enough.

The friends I've made as a result of PE are too numerous to count, and for that I'll always be grateful. So my perception is jaded (enough to keep me around here even with the high level of Asperger's that's rampant!:lol).

[Sean]

Well we've had a few adverse reactions from artists, the whole Geoff Downes thing springs to mind.

Perfect example of someone that didn't really know us, heard about some "BS" being talked here, arrived to "nuke us all" and then after tuning in daily he realized "Hey, this place isn't the Pirhana pool I was told it was. In fact, some days it's quite good". Soon he apologized to us in his blog and later that year to me in person. All while adding "Keep it up! What you are doing is a good thing that makes a difference". I suspect this would be similar with any number of artists that think our goal is to shit on their work thanks to an occasional visit or worse, heresay.

[nosebone]

My wife thinks we are nerds.

She's right!

[Sean]

Don't tell her what we think of her.

[80s were ok]

I'm curious how you think the outside world perceives PE. I've heard mixed reviews. Curious your take.

i haven't read the two pages on this thread yet, but quite frankly, I never thought about it because..does the out world even know about PE? Do they even care? I mean there are a zillion websites, boards, blogs, whatevers. Unless you are deeply into prog, why would anyone even know about PE?

[Sean]

Had you read the thread you would see I am not talking about them. Of course the world at large is clueless. I am talking about the prog industry and it's artists perceptions of us.

[Facelift]

i haven't read the two pages on this thread yet, but quite frankly, I never thought about it because..does the out world even know about PE? Do they even care? I mean there are a zillion websites, boards, blogs, whatevers. Unless you are deeply into prog, why would anyone even know about PE?

To summarize the prior posts: "outside world" = 1) other people who primarily use other music/prog discussion sites (ex: ProgArchives, RYM) 2) the artists, and 3) wives/girlfriends of PE members

[100423]

Had you read the thread you would see I am not talking about them...
Don't expect too much. :lol

[Jerjo]

I think in general we're pretty kind to artists though some might find the waters a little rough (cough*Billy Sherwood*cough). Look at the Nektar Tab in the Ocean thread on the old site. That was a fantastic exchange between the artists and fans.

I belong to a large forum for fantasy fiction that has started as a discussion place devoted to one author and has grown in this immense place that not only discusses fantasy books and authors, but all forms of entertainment and some pretty serious topics as well. There have been a number of authors that have posted on there and the ones with a moderately thick skin flourish. I think any artist has to realize that not everyone loves them, there's going to be some negative reviews and opinions on a web forum, and the quicker they get over being a precious snowflake and be a little self-deprecating the better. No matter what the medium, fans love nothing more than exchanging with an artist online.

[Amy]

To summarize the prior posts: "outside world" = 1) other people who primarily use other music/prog discussion sites (ex: ProgArchives, RYM) 2) the artists, and 3) wives/girlfriends of PE members

Not all PE members have wives or significant others who are female. Case in point, myself. :) Which brings me to this: A lot of women are into prog. A lot go to the more "popular" progfests, and quite a few have sat on the hill during NEARfest to be photographed for the PE picture. But not too many of these women contribute here, from what I can see. Not sure why, but I wish it wasn't so. Maybe they feel that their voice is so small, so why bother. Or maybe they're just busy. :)

I feel that I need to be rather on my game when I post here (because I'm in the company of so many who are really up on their prog), and that a certain sort of levity isn't tolerated well. Otherwise, I think PE is a good place and well-respected by many involved in the prog scene. It's an honest and very informative place with little nonsense.

[polmico]

Don't tell her what we think of her.

Well she just asked, "Who is this?" as I was playing PT, and then I told her, and she said it was "pretty," so perhaps there is still hope yet!

[Sean]

Fingers crossed!

[Facelift]

Not all PE members have wives or significant others who are female. Case in point, myself. :)

While that certainly is true, it would have been inaccurate of me to include such people in a summary of the above posts, as husbands and boyfriends had not been mentioned.


Which brings me to this: A lot of women are into prog.

Ok... the password, please?

[Plasmatopia]

A few years ago when I joined here I was really under the impression that this was kind of a harsh place particularly if one liked certain bands. I had acquired that characterization from people participating on various prog-related mailing lists - some of whom had come, had seen, and ran. I'm not sure if I simply saw what I expected upon arrival or what, but I felt at the time that this characterization had some truth to it. Maybe this is all down to a few bad apples that showed no restraint/respect for others they disagreed with.

I feel differently now. I do think of PE as a more balanced sort of site. Overall the members seem better behaved. Or maybe I've changed.

[Amy]

...as husbands and boyfriends had not been mentioned.

My, that's curious! ;)




Ok... the password, please?

PAYATTENTION (careful, it's case sensitive)

[Vic2012]

It wouldn't suprise me to know some "big names" from "Big 5" bands have probably lurked here over the years. It wouldn't suprise me if they didn't want to join in all the wild and wooly fun though. I think it's possible to be critical of the music they produce and still be courteous. People who feel that artists should all be thick-skinned and have to wear a flame retardent suit are people who love controversy. But I understand how some of the big names might have a chip on their shoulders and feel it's beneath them to mix in with the fan base. That really comes off as arrogant sometimes. I guess that's the beauty of forums like this. The regular joe/jane can voice his/her opinion.

[notallwhowander]

This internet is certainly a double-edged sword, innit? On one hand an artist can cultivate and connect with a fan base, on the other hand, anybody can wander into the party and piss in the punchbowl. I remember an interview with Adrian Belew talking about how burned he felt on Elephant Talk. So he just does his thing on his site now, where he knows people like him.

I often tell people that the internet is a pit of weasels, but I've found PE much less so. Still, I'm deep inside the bubble here, and have been off the self-appointed welcome wagon for quite a while. My tendency to respond to folks I've known for a while is something I can easily see as cliquish, but it isn't intentional. I don't mean to exclude anyone, but then I'm not as actively inclusive as I once was either.

[zombywoof]

I think it's possible to be critical of the music they produce and still be courteous.

At The Jethro Tull Board, they often discuss a love/hate relationship with the artist's we like the most. The artists we like can sometimes irritate us the most, as we expect more from them. That site is well-known for its ability to criticize Ian Anderson, yet still be courteous. I believe we have that ethic here. Afterall, we're all here because we are passionate about progressive rock. I, for one, don't enjoy talking about music I don't like or don't have an interest in.

[Poisoned Youth]

I would imagine that PE circa last 5 years could be pretty daunting to an outsider. The fact this site has a great deal of daily activity is somewhat rare on many forums. It is indeed what I would classify as "established", while I won't say "clique" I'd say there are about 30-50 posters here that dominate the bandwidth and interact as if they know each other well.

I also think the active readership has changed so gradually over what it was 5 years ago. I'd say a number of people here now are here because they want to hang out, where music becomes a bit of a back seat discussion unless something enters their cross hairs. I'd argue there are a lot more "reactive" listeners here now, or maybe more accurately less "proactive". I feel you learn a lot less if you're interested in seeking out music than you did back then. There used to be rather regular discussions about more obscure artists, a particular country or style, or just about one cool album or track started by the likes of Assaf, Alex, or Chris (nosebone). It's essentially more homogenized now..."big 5" is still in vogue, UK/US/English language artists, what's current, and throw a little Italian in there and you pretty much can sum up the majority of the discussion......that is for those even still interested in talking about music. :)

[Jerjo]

Start a thread with anything that occurred or was popular when baby boomer males were in elementary school or their teens and it is guaranteed to go seven pages.

[VickiLynn]

Maybe they feel that their voice is so small, so why bother. Or maybe they're just busy. :)


I read more than I post because I joined PE in hopes of discovering new or obscure prog bands to check out. I really don't have a lot of time to discuss at length, but I do pop in and out often and make comments every once in a while.

[Sean]

Regarding Cozy's post- This is not really what I hoped for at PE's onset. v3.0 could be really special, a re-birth. Not really feeling it at the moment though. I think we need to take measures to get back some of the things we lost and refocus.

[polmico]

^Like what? Ban certain people? Ban certain topics? Ban featured CDs that only like three people open and discuss?

I remember when I came to PE.

There was a bunch of music I ignored. Too much. Porcupine Tree? Sounds stupid. Pass. Angalgard? Can't even type that correctly. Pass. It took me a long time to get over that. It also took some disposable income that I could spend on new music.

I'm not saying I open every thread about new music. But I open a bunch.

Man, PE is what it is. It's the site that brought Aquaserge and Beardfish and Wolf People and Wobbler and Steven Wilson and Diagonal into my life. I'm not sure how or why that works all together, but I don't question it.

I dunno. Maybe I would care if I were in charge. But I'm not, so I don't mind, and I don't question it.

Just because y'all don't feel it, doesn't mean the rest of us don't. And just because I don't comment on every bizarre featured CD, doesn't mean I don't open them and check them out.

I guess the question is: how do you define "really special" and "rebirth"? What were you expecting?

[Sean]

Just because y'all don't feel it, doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

Thank you for saying that. Me "feeling it" is not anything to be concerned about. I know how much good PE does (you cited a number of examples) and that is what justifies it's existence regardless how I may feel at the time.


I guess the question is: how do you define "really special" and "rebirth"? What were you expecting?
I'm not exactly sure! I made this move with trepidation and Duncan has done an amazing job making this place tick. I guess what I miss is some of the variety Cozy mentioned and well crafted, long winded musical discussions. Maybe it's just going to take awhile. Maybe we can steer it in that direction. Not sure. Need to think about it more.

I remember when I saw Cozy at Nearfest last year, we were outside at 2am at the Comfort Suites BSing about whatever with a bunch of folks and he asked me what I wanted from PE #3. I said I just wanted it to be more than 2 was, and 2 was pretty revolutionary at the time so I guess it's a real tough act to follow.

I think the tone of late is sometimes defensive here. There's a handful here that sort of live to annoy each other and drag the rest of us through it. So I guess an adjustment in attitudes is needed as much as a widening of MUSICAL subjects.

[Facelift]

I think the tone of late is sometimes defensive here. There's a handful here that sort of live to annoy each other and drag the rest of us through it. So I guess an adjustment in attitudes is needed as much as a widening of MUSICAL subjects.

Opinions don't appear to be in particularly short supply here. I'm sure if you or other mods occasionally made posts requesting thoughts about a particular issue, you'd get plenty of responses. You might have to get the ball rolling yourselves, though.

[Scott Bails]

I don't think the web server of the forum has anything to do with the content.

Many of the "old guard" have come out and said that they're not comfortable here, and while I can respect that, I'll never understand it. It's just organized a little differently.

A forum is only as good as the people that frequent it, and this forum generally has some of the coolest people on the Internet. There's amazing knowledge, and usually respect for one another. Sure, we all get under each others' skin from time to time, but in comparison to many other places on the web, this place is amazingly civil.

I guess I don't understand the whole "rebirth" thing - if this site is lacking anything, it's up to the members to provide it, IMO. Logistically, software-wise, this place is freaking awesome.

[Sean]

Agreed. Bring on the hot topics! Maybe we should offer an incentive of some sort....

[80s were ok]

prog babes would be an incentive

[Scott Bails]

They would be, but their thread was closed. ;)

[80s were ok]

considering that that was one of the longest, if not the longest thread on PE3, I kind of see Seans point.

[Scott Bails]

But that's no different from the old forum - except on the old forum, that thread probably would have gone private. Many of those private threads went on for hundreds of pages.

I'd argue that the current system is better.

[Yodelgoat]

Im suprised by the number of people logged on to this site, yet Like Sean says, theres only about 30 or 40 that do most of the posting, unless its in a Yes thread. I like am not a main poster here but I read alot, and I post at few times a week. is the number of posts permanently broke? I'm still at zero, yet I'm sure I have more than that. I'd be interested to see just how little I contribute.

[Gladiator1634]

As a life long fan of prog I thought I had a pretty good grip on who most of the players were in the prog scene going back to its very beginnings. After joining PE I very quickly discovered that there was a lot I didn't know.
And this site is responsible for opening the door to a wealth of easily accessible information on not just prog but many other topics as well.
I find most of the posters to be respectful and sincere with engaging in discussions but there are a few rebel rousers who seem to thrive on creating issues.
I think as long as artist can accept the bad criticism along with the good it could very beneficial to look in or get involved with some discussions.
My wife wonders what I'm doing on here all time but she knows I'm into my music and I enjoy being here so she doesn't make an issue of it.
Not really sure what your looking to change here I think it's working fine.

[Scott Bails]

As a life long fan of prog I thought I had a pretty good grip on who most of the players were in the prog scene going back to its very beginnings. After joining PE I very quickly discovered that there was a lot I didn't know.


Man, you ain't kiddin'.

Growing up, I was "the music trivia geek." I was the guy who knew everything about music.

And then I found this place. I'm a child among men. (And women, of course. ;))

[Hunnibee]

It's funny, after nearly 10 years here, to look back and see how far I've grown musically. I had no clue the world of Prog was so huge (much like Scott and Gladiator) and I've learned so much and fell in love with this incredible, awesome music! Prog Ears was the first Prog board I discovered. I followed Sean's link on a Kansas fans board one day and voila... there was the Prog universe laid out before me. I have been loyal to this place ever since. Being socially awkward, I haven't made the close friends that others have, and I've had some problems with some of the people here, but for the most part, I feel this is where I belong when it comes to Progressive music. The friends I have managed to make are awesome, and I appreciate them a lot! :) Some of you here did me a kindness once, and I won't ever forget that! (where's that "love" emote, Duncan? ;) )

As for outside perceptions, I get some feedback whenever I mention Prog Ears on Facebook or a band's board. It seems a lot of women will lurk here but not post. As Amy says, their voices might seem small. It's a huge board. I remember feeling very lost at first here, so i can understand. Unfortunately, I also hear negative things like "I don't post there anymore because they're jerks" or "I don't get respect for my opinions", etc. I think some women feel this place is like a Jr. High locker room. I know many guys who won't come here, either. I have tirelessly defended this place. I remember some heated discussions with my fellow Yes fans over Geoff Downs. Thank god that's all blown over now. :D

I don't know enough musicians to know how they feel. Prog Ears is more than just a place to promote your band or upcoming concerts or your internet radio show. Good god, there's as many internet radio shows as there are Prog bands, it seems! :lol

I'm just glad this place exists. The music I've discovered here and the good people, too... it's been an incredible, sometimes dysfunctional (like family), and beautiful ride. I will keep on defending this place and encouraging others to join or post more. I can't convince Michael Howarth to rejoin and a few others, but I'm trying. :)

Anyway, blah blah. Some people "get" this place and some don't. I'm glad I stuck around, thin skinned as I am. The music is more than worth it!

[Duncan Glenday]

I don't think much of the outside world knows we are here outside of the previously mentioned PA members.

You'd be amazed by how many top-level artists read the forum regularly - usually as guests, but often as anonymous members. In fact one very well respected artist just joined the site this week. If those artists choose anonymity, or prefer not to announce themselves, we respect that ... which is why I won't name names. But the site is read by more industry insiders than you may think - including promoters, labels, PR people, festival organizers, and so on.


Was it ever mean spirited? Ever seen someone cut to shreds and left for dead?

When Nektar was going through a hard time about 5 or 6 years ago, this board was f***ing ruthless. I hope I never see that here again.


At The Jethro Tull Board, they often discuss a love/hate relationship with the artist's we like the most. The artists we like can sometimes irritate us the most, as we expect more from them. That site is well-known for its ability to criticize Ian Anderson, yet still be courteous. I believe we have that ethic here. Afterall, we're all here because we are passionate about progressive rock. I, for one, don't enjoy talking about music I don't like or don't have an interest in.

So how do we encourage that tone here..?


Opinions don't appear to be in particularly short supply here. I'm sure if you or other mods occasionally made posts requesting thoughts about a particular issue, you'd get plenty of responses. You might have to get the ball rolling yourselves, though.

Posting a daily Featured CD is a pretty significant effort in that direction ... but feel free to offer specific suggestions.

[Vic2012]

That site is well-known for its ability to criticize Ian Anderson, yet still be courteous.

That's the key. For me it's very simple, if I know I'm addressing the musician I'll be courteous. I don't get anything out of being critical and just trying to stir shit by being rude to the musician. OTOH, I don't have a problem saying it sucks, it's awfull, whatever because I don't assume Mr. Big Name, Big Five musician is reading what I'm writing.

Now, one thing I've noticed over the years is that when a musician/band comes to PE (it's not anyone famous obviously) and starts a thread about his/her new project, and the first thing they say in the post is [i]"Now, be brutally honest, I really wanna know what you guys think of my new composition" I just smell trouble :lol. I mean I've seen it before with my own eyes on PE. Not many times but it's happened. Newbie prog artist wants "brutal honesty" and when he gets brutal honesty his feelings get hurt. And it's only human that his response would be "I'd like to see you try it. Can you do better?" God I just cringe every time I read a thread title or a post when an "artist" wants brutal honesty. Personally, I'd just throw the music out there and expect people to be honest without me asking for "brutal honesty."


You'd be amazed by how many top-level artists read the forum regularly - usually as guests, but often as anonymous members.

I would be amazed, but I'm not all that surprised. In this "Google is your friend" world we live in I can only imagine that Mr. Famous Prog Musician has Googled himself and followed a few links here and there to see what people think of their work. It's only human and natural.

I liked Polmico's post responding to Cozy's post. I see Cozy's POV but I think Polmico's response is probably representative of a lot of his here. To me I treat PE as a classic/rock and general music discussion site more than anything. I need a place to talk about the Beatles, Zeppelin, Yes, Metallica, Tull, etc., etc. There's more than enough classic/rock discussion to keep me interested. Yeah it's also become sort of "social media network" like Twitter and FB (places I'd never think of joining). That's not what the mods want, we understand that. I just go with the flow. I don't start threads just for the hell of it. Some members just love to start threads about whatever pops into their minds though. As just a regular "Joe PE member" I find it funny sometimes but I can see how frustrating it is for the mods too.

[Vic2012]

I wanted to also say that one of the BIG reasons why I think PE is successfull as a music discussion forum is because it's not a dedicated, band specific forum. I've been a member of band forums before. Eventually you feel stifled and you have to walk on eggshells. It's one thing to use common courtesy, and it's another to feel that the slightest critique of the band/artist invites a slap on the wrist. Here we're free to be honest. And it's also good that the mods will slap us upside the head when we need it.

[trurl]

Do you remember how Howard Stern used to critique women on his show? PE can be like that for an artist. It's generally done with a certain brutal lack of any tact that can feel very personal to people that just aren't used to the way internet boards work. It would be like having a baby, and to you it's a beautiful and perfect baby and you show it to people and they'll say, "Yeah... but wow, look, the nose is kind of big... and the eyes are too wide. And what's up with those lips? I do like the tongue. And the feet. It's not that cute though. Now Anglagard, that's a perfect baby."

And you're like, "I'm standing right here!! Fuck!" You have to get to where you realize that you're NOT standing right there, as far as anyone posting is concerned. Or the ones that think you might be don't give a crap.

To actually hang out here as an artist you have to just basically be able to say, "Your opinion means nothing and you're wrong, and I respect you for it. Unless you love my baby with all your heart, in which case then, you're totally right and awesome." :D

It's hard to get used to the idea that it's not really personal, and it all comes off differently than someone would be face to face. I slag off lots of stuff myself without giving a lot of thought to how that might feel when I'm on the giving end.

Also, PE is a really good and important place to get opinions and talk music but in terms of the market at large it's really pretty minor. If everyone here decides that the guitar sound on an album sucks it doesn't really affect the bottom line. But, it's nice to have good feedback from here. I think criticism is good to hear, and useful, even if it's given in an abrasive way.

So, for most artists I think it's just a bad idea to hang out here and I think that's why it has a bad rep when you read about it from artists and such. For those with a thick skin it's a lot of fun though!

[zombywoof]

After thinking about this thread, I will admit to one flaw about this board. Sometimes its hard to have a negative or contrary opinion without getting a swarm of sarcastic, snarky responses. Having grown up in a sarcastic household, I know how to take it and dish it back, but not everyone can. Granted, no one has insulted me in any way and it hasn't stopped me from posting contrary opinions. :-) If you want to see people rip members to shreds, look into the Zappa forum sometime. There's a place I'm genuinely afraid to be myself. If they decide they don't like you, they sometimes devote entire threads to attacking you in a very public way. I've never seen anything like that at PE, nothing even remotely personal about fellow members or artists.

[Scott Bails]

So how do we encourage that tone here..?



Honestly?


I'd suggest PMs and temporary bans for folks that get out of hand. And for those that "cross the line," actual permanent bans (i.e. not a ban where you just sign up again under a different name).

For the most part, I like the laissez-faire moderation here - we're all treated like adults and can usually work out our own problems - but if you're looking for that more civil tone, that comes from moderation, IMHO.

[Scott Bails]

And, yet again, trurl nails it. :up

[sonic]

If famous people are watching this board ... does that mean we are famous? X)

[80s were ok]

You'd be amazed by how many top-level artists read the forum regularly - usually as guests, but often as anonymous members. .

are we talking about high profile members of or akin to members of the Big five (or six or whatever - you know, musicians with real history recording for major labels who play to thousands of fans at concerts)-type caliber musicians or people who like put a record out on something like Prog Rock Records that know one has really heard of except half a dozen PE members?

[80s were ok]

If famous people are watching this board ... does that mean we are famous? X)

nope. When you go to a concert, the band is watching you and that doesn't make you famous.

[Progmatic]

nope. When you go to a concert, the band is watching you and that doesn't make you famous.

SOB all that wasted money and time...:D

[Yodelgoat]

Honestly?


I'd suggest PMs and temporary bans for folks that get out of hand. And for those that "cross the line," actual permanent bans (i.e. not a ban where you just sign up again under a different name).

.

But you have to admit,sometimes that rude banter/line crossing can be damned good reading... Poor Blue Vino. The wit and outright gall of some of our posters here is epic.

As an artist, who isnt even close to famous, I dont come here for promo, I come for info and enjoyment. I didnt mind when people shat on my stuff (very rarely even mentioned) But what do I know? I'm a frackin Goat!

[NogbadTheBad]

But you have to admit,sometimes that rude banter/line crossing can be damned good reading... Poor Blue Vino. The wit and outright gall of some of our posters here is epic.The ocassional flame-war can be damn funny, as long as it's only ocassional. It's those 2 or 3 posters who are like that every post who get on your nerves.

[80s were ok]

But you have to admit,sometimes that rude banter/line crossing can be damned good reading... Poor Blue Vino.

conflict is always entertaining. Think of your favorite movies or TV shows...I'm sure there is an element of conflict between characters. Without it, it is very very boring.

[Steve F.]

I'll be the voice of dissent.

Among some of my friends, this place is known as "The Hateful Forum"

I think that there is way too much mean-spirited crap on this board and there has been for years and years. It hasn't gotten worse because of the software changes behind the board, but it certainly hasn't improved because of it.

There's always discussion about improving the tone, but you'll never improve the tone if you are not willing to toss people once in a while and let everyone know they were tossed and why.

No one has any right to post whatever they want here. They have a right to post here as long as they follow the rules and too many know that they don't have to follow the rules and nothing will happen to them if they don't follow the rules.

You want more 'conversation' and 'discussion' here and less snark?? Enforce the rules.

I am sure that all the moderators are pretty tired of being the moderators. It's a tiresome, thankless job.

But since Sean asked, I am giving my honest opinion of what is needed. I've said it before and was ignored. I expect to be ignored this time as well, but I am giving my honest opinion of the place.

imo.

[Scott Bails]

I'll be the voice of dissent.

Among some of my friends, this place is known as "The Hateful Forum"



Wow.

These people must not frequent too many other forums then.

This place is an oasis among many cesspools on the Internet.

[Steve F.]

Wow.

These people must not frequent too many other forums then.

This place is an oasis among many cesspools on the Internet.
I can't argue with that. I certainly don't spend much time on forums.

It may be an oasis compared to many cesspools, but I still think it's mean spirited and snarky and not very informative too much of the time.

ymmv.

[Progmatic]

I'll be the voice of dissent.

Among some of my friends, this place is known as "The Hateful Forum"

I think that there is way too much mean-spirited crap on this board and there has been for years and years. It hasn't gotten worse because of the software changes behind the board, but it certainly hasn't improved because of it.

There's always discussion about improving the tone, but you'll never improve the tone if you are not willing to toss people once in a while and let everyone know they were tossed and why.

No one has any right to post whatever they want here. They have a right to post here as long as they follow the rules and too many know that they don't have to follow the rules and nothing will happen to them if they don't follow the rules.

You want more 'conversation' and 'discussion' here and less snark?? Enforce the rules.

I am sure that all the moderators are pretty tired of being the moderators. It's a tiresome, thankless job.

But since Sean asked, I am giving my honest opinion of what is needed. I've said it before and was ignored. I expect to be ignored this time as well, but I am giving my honest opinion of the place.

imo.

some strong words...I have been on few different forums and people are the same everywhere...if they disagree with something they raise the issue and surely it can escalate...I have come across heated exchanges frequently, pragmatically speaking, people were just showing their passion...most of the time it is just misunderstandings or different angle the people look at the same thing … but I found that on this forum people tend to keep it civil for the longest time, keeping it impersonal...I came very rarely across real hatred…but then again I also learned that some people may perceive simple disagreement as a sign of hatred…

[Scott Bails]

Yeah, I really, really don't get the "hateful" comment at all.

[Steve F.]

some strong words…

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

Anyway, I'm done now. You can say I'm wrong or I'm a jerk or I don't know how much worse every place else is or I'm a douchebag or you might even agree with what I have said.

Sean asked and I answered. This is the end of it from me about this subject in this thread. You all can take or leave my comments.

[100423]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

That's the thing for me, too. You can disagree with someone without having to be derogatory. You can state your dislike of a band, or song, or album with having to deem it a pile of steaming shit. Some just maybe not be as entertained by it when it's civil.

[Progmatic]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

Anyway, I'm done now. You can say I'm wrong or I'm a jerk or I don't know how much worse every place else is or I'm a douchebag or you might even agree with what I have said.

Sean asked and I answered. This is the end of it from me about this subject in this thread. You all can take or leave my comments.

I did not mean that was something wrong with your statement...it just surprises me that someone would think of PE that way...that is all

[Gladiator1634]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...
.

Your right and that's how it is done most of the time here. Is there some sarcasm on here at times sure and I don't agree with it but not sure I've witnessed what I would call hateful. You can't expect a forum with this many people to always be in sync sometimes it comes down to how others perceive and react to criticism.

[Scott Bails]

I did not mean that was something wrong with your statement...it just surprises me that someone would think of PE that way...that is all

Agreed.

[NogbadTheBad]

Good post Steve, I'll bear it mind next time in stumble into a neo thread.

[Plasmatopia]

IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

I totally agree with this. We always hear the same sorts of things about how it's a big bad world out there on the Internet and you'd better put on your flame-retardant suit, etc. But it is possible to create a place that isn't like that.

[trurl]

You also have to figure that on a public forum with a few thousand people, catering to a fairly- dare I say- intellectual and nerdy pursuit like prog, some posters are going to be afflicted with varying degrees of verbal Asberger's (to put it one way), some aren't native English speakers and don't quite come off like they would want and there's always people that just like to stir the pot :D On PE2 there were only a few people that really got under my skin; most of them didn't migrate over here and one turned out to be really cool even though I disagree with everything he stands for *lol*

[Gruno]

There's always discussion about improving the tone, but you'll never improve the tone if you are not willing to toss people once in a while and let everyone know they were tossed and why.

I agree with this to a point.

If someone is getting out of hand, then warnings or bannings are necessary. Don't disrupt the herd, just eliminate the bad ones.

[trurl]

I agree with this to a point.

If someone is getting out of hand, then warnings or bannings are necessary. Don't disrupt the herd, just eliminate the bad ones.Yeah... it's like having a kid; they'll test you. You have to follow through on a punishment or they'll walk all over you.

[Scott Bails]

Yeah... it's like having a kid; they'll test you...


I thought you were going to say that you had to eliminate them if they started getting out of hand! :lol

[Esoteric]

Ok from a label and manager side of things--I find it a really interesting site, a combination of social/business but always something I didnt know or find interesting and I like the international aspect of the site --albeit with a slight US focus in terms of members. I know many artists who regularly look but wont post--as they dont want to get into a "Billy Sherwood" type situation or have some abusive person going off on one, so yes many (although not all) of the big guys are very aware of it.

I know many of them (like ourselves) dont like being referred to just by their surname as if they are some kind of commodity--we are all people!! we have feelings. On or two people on here very fond of doing that.

I know many of us also feel there are some people on here who say statements that are blatantly not true about bands/artists/releases (past and present) insinuating they "know from the inside" --when they clearly dont know at all. Can be really annoying to have to sit on your hands in some cases--but many things just are not for public posting. and

I know many artists too who are greatful their name is being kept aloft by the site--so allelujah on behalf of them.

[Yodelgoat]

..Billy Sherwood. That was too bad, I didnt even really know who the guy was, I sure know now.

As far as label owners go, as an artist, I doubt I will ever see things exactly as a label see things. I wish you wouldn't sit on your hands. Perhaps a little communication once in a while might be what is needed. Of course public display is not always the best place to air ones laundry, but to the artist its a perfectly reasonable place to start, its how you get peoples attention who prefer to ignore you. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its a reality. Artists can be awkward to deal with. I had no idea I had that streak of passion in me when I tried to look at my music as a commodity. I was the loose cannon, but Labels are the ones who ought to be the stable ones, However, they can be worse and saying "hey, its in the contract" isnt terribly helpful - you may be right, but it doesnt innoculate you from being a focal point for artistic derision.

Sorry, I'm rambling....

I have no label now. I feel better.

[Jefferson James]

I have no clue how the outside world perceives this place -- I've never heard anyone outside of PE say anything negative about it. I have met dozens of PE members over the years and the experience is always positive, which says a lot.

I find the crowd here to be exceptionally respectful as a rule and when things get out of hand it rarely, if ever, devolves into pure hatred and flame wars. I've jousted and jabbed with a handful of members and it's always been in the spirit of fun, never taken personally and always laughed-off in the end.

As a rock-bottom-scraping-the-barrel-level "artist" out there trying to make Prog Rock(tm) in this day and age, I learned very quickly people here aren't necessarily interested in a band just because they call their style "progressive rock"; there's too many bands clamoring for attention and that attention, when received (if at all) is spread-out among a few supporters here and there, unlike the Major Label Legends(tm) who have legions of fans due to the marketing dollars spent on promotion back in the day. For a new artist to come to PE and expect anyone to give them the time of day just because they write "progressive rock" -- Blue Vino, anyone? -- is unrealistic. If the artist can't see that, it's not PE's fault, just as it's not the new artist's fault more people talk about Yes and Genesis than, say, Sanguin Hum.

It's called life.

I pretty much owe any "success" I've had in the past five years to Progressive Ears; this place is a fantastic resource and if utilized somewhat sparingly and with respect, some truly wonderful opportunities can arise for self-promoting low-level artists. I came on board at a time when I wasn't even playing prog rock; I enjoyed the vibe here, the tone was generally respectful, and people were more than willing to share and educate. When the time came where I had something to promote I wasn't accused of being a hit-and-run spammer 'cause I was already hanging out here. I know it sounds stupid but that's how it went down.

As far as having a thick skin, I guess I'm lucky 'cause it doesn't bother me when someone is critical of whatever I put out there; it's just songs, there are more to be written and at the end of the day no one likes everything. I don't even like everything by my favorite artists; that's what keeps life interesting.


If someone is truly interested in discovering new music and unearthing old gems, this is the place to be; if someone wants to come here and get opinions about their music, by default they open themselves up for criticism -- as well as praise -- and if the results don't suit them don't blame Progressive Ears!

I think it's cool higher-level artists hang out here; whenever a veteran artist makes a post it's like a glimpse behind the curtain, you know? I wish more of 'em would post rather than lurk but that's their prerogative. Since becoming aware of the presence of some heavy-hitters here I have found myself trying to be more balanced and less emotional in my posts about their music. I want them to know I really listened and, if it didn't work for me, that I at least respect the fact they went out there and did something. I feel any artist worth their salt appreciates balanced criticism backed up by tangible assessments and even in the worst cases, I can always find at least a couple of positive things to highlight. If, Allah forbid, I have pissed-off any higher-level artist by criticizing their work in my own style, it's their problem, not mine. I look at it this way: reading a review speaks 100% to the mindset of the reviewer and not the artist.

I love this place and I do miss the more detailed threads which were de rigueur on PEV2, but I consider this board to be a developing entity and hopefully with time it'll morph into something a little less scattered and more focused.

Meanwhile, have you heard my new band? ;)

[Steve F.]

I wish you wouldn't sit on your hands. Perhaps a little communication once in a while might be what is needed. Of course public display is not always the best place to air ones laundry, but to the artist its a perfectly reasonable place to start, its how you get peoples attention who prefer to ignore you.
You're the person who ON THIS FORUM called me dishonest, without your knowing anything about me or my work, strictly because I am a label owner!

At least two artists who have recorded for us posted that we were great and honest and that they were grateful to us and our office for all of our help with their career and that you didn't know wtf you were talking about.

I don't recall receiving an apology...

You are exactly the sort of poster I was referring to when I called this place The Hateful Forum.

Apparently, it's also the STUPID forum.

jeezus.

[Gruno]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...


You are exactly the sort of poster I was referring to when I called this place The Hateful Forum.

Apparently, it's also the STUPID forum..

:roll

[Steve F.]

OK. Gruno is right.

I am not going to erase what I said because I said it. But I apologize.

But it sure would have been nice to have received an apology from Mr. Goat....

[Scott Bails]

Um....yeah....

[80s were ok]

OK. Gruno is right.

I am not going to erase what I said because I said it. But I apologize.

But it sure would have been nice to have received an apology from Mr. Goat....

never heard of either of you...making this type of "Laundry" just silly.

[Innerviews]

That's it. I'm switching to Bolivian Dubstep, and Bolivian Dubstep only.

[Duncan Glenday]

"Now, be brutally honest, I really wanna know what you guys think of my new composition" [/i] I just smell trouble :lol.

... Poor Blue Vino

You beat me to it! :lol

IMHO - when a new artist (Blue Vino was just one of many) joins JUST to promote his/her music, we take umbrage. But if that artist is a regular contributing member of PE, or is an established artist of long standing, I believe they deserve a different measure of respect.


are we talking about high profile members of or akin to members of the Big five (or six or whatever - you know, musicians with real history recording for major labels who play to thousands of fans at concerts)-type caliber musicians or people who like put a record out on something like Prog Rock Records that know one has really heard of except half a dozen PE members?

I was referring to what you called "high profile members of or akin to members of the Big five (or six or whatever - you know, musicians with real history recording for major labels who play to thousands of fans at concerts)-type caliber musicians" - though it really applies to artists at all levels.


I'll be the voice of dissent.
(and many other things...)


Steve's and Vicky's posts are very revealing - and are actually at the heart of the reason Sean started this thread. We've heard similar opinions from other artists, labels, and promotors.

There's a case to be made for respectful treatment of artists - i.e. posting an opinion without being nasty.

But on the other hand, there's an equal case to be made for allowing the fan-base to be as supportive or as critical as they like. They vote on the product they buy with their dollars and their opinions - same as any other product. The artists' target market is the public - and love them or hate them, THIS IS the public. "The public" is made up of flawed humans who are often mean-spirited, and critical. Not just fawning fans.

Perhaps moderation is the answer - but as Steve indicated, moderation is a bitch. You can bet that the moment we moderate the way someone expresses an opinion there will be self-righteous howls of indignation and accusations of inconsistency :roll



...I've said it before and was ignored. I expect to be ignored this time as well...

See? ;)


Wow.

These people must not frequent too many other forums then.

This place is an oasis among many cesspools on the Internet.

Scott is right. But despite what I said above, I'd like to see PE become something of a jewel among opinion boards. I like to think that as a group we are better informed than almost any similar board, and that we can develop ways to welcome artists to the forum, rather than frighten them off.

[Duncan Glenday]

From the TERMS OF SERVICE

5). Please enlighten us with your positive views. It is unnecessary and destructive to tell us about music you hate. Do not start threads about music you don't like and do not post confrontational messages to threads about music you don't like. Feel free to express negative opinions as long as they are enlightening and respectful of the tastes of others, and in the spirit of critical debate. The moderators will not mediate inter-personal arguments. If you feel that any member is bullying or being consistently confrontational, you must use the "ignore" feature.

Please read it again

[80s were ok]

^ this always pops in my mind when people start threads like "your least favorite Yes album" or Phil Collins threads that clearly are started to continue the Phil bashing. Just pointless.

[Jefferson James]

because I am a label owner!

Steve, if I'm butting in where I shouldn't I apologize, but from where I stand Yodelgoat has, to his credit, been consistent in his public disdain for record labels; it's not just you and Cuneiform, it's ALL labels. The guy has had bad experiences with labels in the past and as far as I'm aware he has no issues stating so.

I'm as much against the old-school major label business model as the next guy, but what Yodelgoat may be failing to understand is labels like yours, 10T Records or Laser's Edge are NOT major labels but rather small businesses striving to find a fair and equitable balance between art and commerce. I respect that but perhaps Yodelgoat has been burned too many times in the past, I don't know. Regardless, there is no excuse for his unfounded allegations against you and Cuneiform.

I'm currently anguished regarding a label I was speaking with in great detail last year; we were very close to putting something in writing and POOF! Now they won't even return my emails, not even when I asked if I had done something to offend them. Just silence. I would at least expect the professionalism to have the courtesy to tell me they're not interested anymore, you know? I'm 50 years old, trust me -- I can handle rejection and I appreciate the expertise and advice these labels can offer even as they're turning me down.

That's life in the big city and at the end of the day, I'm not writing music with the goal of attracting a label being foremost in my mind. At the very least I learned that perhaps that particular label wasn't one I was destined to work with, you know? Maybe there is no label out there for whatever I do, and that's ok, too. It still doesn't affect the music, or the fun of having a gigging band. Anyone getting into Prog Rock with the goal of signing to a label and making money is, in my humble opinion, grossly delusional. :)

[NogbadTheBad]

Having people like Vicky, Steve F, trurl, Phideaux & Mike Johnson here is a huge boon to this place. I find the threads they contribute to be the most insightful on the real workings of the business and often very entertaining. So if we can be more of an oasis in the cesspool of the internet I'm all for it. This place would lose a significant contributing factor if the hate level was ratcheted up to the point where these guys leave. Criticism is a valid form of cummunication but it doesn't need to be hateful or rude. Mind you some artists need a bit of a thicker skin if criticism has been delivered respctfully. The worst are the spammers who only join to spam their new music then display umbridge when people call them on it.

[progeezer]

If you banned all of the PE members who have "lost it" more than once here and veered from the civility that should be encouraged (as it is by some in this thread), there would probably be no more than 40 people left here (& I wouldn't be one of them).

Duncan summed it up logically imho:

But on the other hand, there's an equal case to be made for allowing the fan-base to be as supportive or as critical as they like. They vote on the product they buy with their dollars and their opinions - same as any other product. The artists' target market is the public - and love them or hate them, THIS IS the public. "The public" is made up of flawed humans who are often mean-spirited, and critical. Not just fawning fans.

[Facelift]

I learned very quickly people here aren't necessarily interested in a band just because they call their style "progressive rock"; there's too many bands clamoring for attention and that attention, when received (if at all) is spread-out among a few supporters here and there, unlike the Major Label Legends(tm) who have legions of fans due to the marketing dollars spent on promotion back in the day. For a new artist to come to PE and expect anyone to give them the time of day just because they write "progressive rock" -- Blue Vino, anyone? -- is unrealistic. If the artist can't see that, it's not PE's fault, just as it's not the new artist's fault more people talk about Yes and Genesis than, say, Sanguin Hum.



This. I think some artists - especially artists from back in the day who sold a lot of albums - make the false assumption that the vast majority of the remaining fans of progressive rock music (which is really not a lot of people) make their qualitative distinctions about music at the border of the progressive rock genre. Once they get into the message-board discussion, they might initially be surprised to find out that this is definitely not the case, especially among people who count traditionally-defined "prog-rock" as only one of several of their musical interests. They might be surprised and confused by negative reactions, assuming that the people who enjoy progressive rock would like and want to support nearly everyone who shares their same interests, in the hopes of keeping the scene alive. But, in reality, the passions of the fans run in both directions and, added to the interweb dynamic of the loudest voices being the most heard, and the human nature of getting desensitized to whatever you're over-exposed to...well, someone who is checking in for the first time and isn't so desensitized can be in for a rude awakening and inevitably want to take out some frustration on those responsible for making them suddenly feel so unloved.

It's great and desirable that a general level respect and decency be exercised by everyone towards everyone on these boards, but the fact does remain that there are fundamental differences in the experience between being a producer and a consumer. It is the nature and the right of consumers to often want to rate, compare, complain about and shower praise upon the things that they expended their time, money and even emotions on, especially in the arena of the arts. These reactions are practically inimical to the experience. On the other hand, it is the nature of producers, especially in the arts, to assign a high value to their products/creations, and to desire that they be wanted, and to take criticism personally.

The mods here seem to have done a good job (IMO) of not compromising the nature of the site to soothe the egos of established musicians, while at the same time holding members accountable for untrue or negative opinions about a particular artist stated virulently.

[80s were ok]

as a fan of music and not a musician, I think musicians should generally stay away from message boards like this. Maybe come on here to "announce" something new (if you have valid real product or a real tour, not just crap you did on your computer) is ok, but to start going back and forth with people on here....meh - I guess "in the old days" there was a certain mystique about your favorite musicians. With social media, that's really broken down quite a bit, almost to a fault.

[Rarebird]

as a fan of music and not a musician, I think musicians should generally stay away from message boards like this. Maybe come on here to "announce" something new (if you have valid real product or a real tour, not just crap you did on your computer) is ok, but to start going back and forth with people on here....meh - I guess "in the old days" there was a certain mystique about your favorite musicians. With social media, that's really broken down quite a bit, almost to a fault.

I'm not sure why musicians should stay away from message-boards like this. They function as places where one might find people interested in the music the musician makes.
And as a musician working with computers, I more or less object naming music made this way as crap. A recording is a recording and in the end it doesn't matter how it's made. Why is music made on a computer crap, and music made with banks of sequencers a valid real product. I would love to have 'real' musicians playing the music I write, but I don't have the money to hire them, so I use the computer as a faithfull musician.

As a musician, I consider my music as something I put a lot of time, efford and work in and though I know I should have a thick skin, it still is something like my own baby, something I care about and it doesn't mean I might not feel a little bit hurt if someone just writes it of as being crap.

[Steve F.]

Steve, if I'm butting in where I shouldn't I apologize, but from where I stand Yodelgoat has, to his credit, been consistent in his public disdain for record labels; it's not just you and Cuneiform, it's ALL labels. The guy has had bad experiences with labels in the past and as far as I'm aware he has no issues stating so.

So, that's ok?

I broke up with my girlfriend once. Can I show disdain for all women?

Is it ok if he shows disdain about all gay people?
Is it ok if he shows disdain about all white people?
Is it ok if he shows disdain about all census workers?

etc etc etc.


Regardless, there is no excuse for his unfounded allegations against you and Cuneiform. Correct. There was no excuse for it.

[80s were ok]

I'm saying musicians shouldn't get into all the back-and-forth banter that can happen. Kind of ruins the mystique. I think it just happened now.

And this is typical PE- you are offended...yet, I didn't offend you. I don't even know who you are. And fair enough on the computer product. I was more talking about hobbyists who do stuff cause they got some new fancy computer program and join PE to say "Hey listen to my stuff" and it's just amateurish junk. I'm not saying that is your music, I have never heard it.

[Rarebird]

I'm saying musicians shouldn't get into all the back-and-forth banter that can happen. Kind of ruins the mystique. I think it just happened now.

And this is typical PE- you are offended...yet, I didn't offend you. I don't even know who you are. And fair enough on the computer product. I was more talking about hobbyists who do stuff cause they got some new fancy computer program and join PE to say "Hey listen to my stuff" and it's just amateurish junk. I'm not saying that is your music, I have never heard it.
Perhaps you should make it clear what you mean by using the computer for music. I don't like generalisations.

And for ruining the mystique, I don't think musicians can stay mysterious like they could in the past. You have to do some promotion. Word of mouth doesn't cut it alone. There are so many people dabling in music, basicly because everyone who has a computer with some kind of music-program that came for free with some midi-keyboard, thinks he can make music. In the past these kind of musicians stayed at home and only bothered their families with their musical explorations, but now they think they should be bringing it out in the open and put it on some free internet-service.

[80s were ok]

Perhaps you should make it clear what you mean by using the computer for music. I don't like generalisations.



this is exactly the type of back-and-forth shit that musicians shouldn't engage in on message boards.

[sonic]

https://lh3.ggpht.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s320/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

[scags]

When I started out here, I had just began playing with Drift, and had no idea what the current scene was. I tried not to spam, and I'd like to use this conversation to thank all the people here who played the songs, or reviewed the album, whether or not the reviews were positive. It was a great place to get in touch with the people I needed to find.

[Jefferson James]

So, that's ok?

No, it's not ok, but that's the way Yodelgoat chooses to come across on this message board. It's like me taking offense to someone who loves avant or RIO and calling my old band's music "trite and cliché" -- it is expected considering the source.

[Yodelgoat]

OK. Gruno is right.

I am not going to erase what I said because I said it. But I apologize.

But it sure would have been nice to have received an apology from Mr. Goat....

ahem... I never insulted you - are you drunk?? (I am) Ive never heard of your label nor had anything to do with your label (whew!)
saying that there is a disparity between "labels" and "Artists" is not hate speech. I dont hate you, I dont know you - You assume quite a bit. Did I miss the memo? am I signed to you and not realize it?

Here is my apology: "Sorrrrrry!" But I dont want to be signed by you - I'll do my own thing, thanks. - I owe YOU an APOLOGY??? WTF!!!

... and that lades and gentlement, is why I'm OK with PE.

What some people call "hate", I call perfectly appropriate. Sheesh, I dont have any relationship with this guy and he's humpin on my ass about hatin' him. You're right - I dont know you - I dont need to know you. It's too bad that your artists dont like dealing with you. Get over it and keep on sitting on your hands. Thats the real solution isnt it? And we need to not discuss it. Is that the real solution?


No, it's not ok, but that's the way Yodelgoat chooses to come across on this message board. .

Excussssse me! Kerry, am I the problem here?

Perhaps its the alternate reality speaking, but what did I do to piss you off?

All I did was comment on the difference between artists and labels. Quite accurately, I might add. They should be the business people, We can be the spoiled little brats.

So, mister Kompost - are you stalking me or something? I had no idea we had ever even had words before.

[Scott Bails]

Oh, the irony.

[80s were ok]

Oh, the irony.

yep

[Hunnibee]

this always pops in my mind when people start threads like "your least favorite Yes album" or Phil Collins threads that clearly are started to continue the Phil bashing. Just pointless.

This is also why I avoid threads where the topic doesn't interest me. If I don't like a band, I don't go into the thread and crap all over it. Sometimes, I'll state a reason why I don't like something, but for the most part, I just avoid the thread and keep scrolling.

[Progmatic]

this thread is evolving in a very peculiar way....what was the topic again?

[Plasmatopia]

"What some people call "hate", I call perfectly appropriate."

Sig worthy...well, for someone probably...

[trurl]

Part of my policy as an "artist" (what a word *lol*) here is I stay out of threads pertaining to us unless I feel I can answer a very specific question constructively. Often then too :D

[Jefferson James]

Excussssse me! Kerry, am I the problem here? Perhaps its the alternate reality speaking, but what did I do to piss you off?

I don't know who you are outside of being "Yodelgoat" here on PE, I don't believe we have ever exchanged words before, am I not stalking you (boy, the tales I could tell about that), you have done nothing to piss me off -- or on, for that matter -- I have simply seen your posts over the years and you've come across as a person who has had bad experiences with labels in the past.

[zombywoof]

I've not had any kind of professional dealings with Steve F., aside from purchasing music from his website and sorting out a couple of issues with my payment, but as I see it, he's one of the guys who does things right. On more than one occasion, I've actually paid more for an item than I would've at Amazon, because I see him as one of the good guys and I'm more than happy to support both he and Ken over at LaserCD.

As for the actual topic, something perhaps we're not thinking of is that artists are passionate people. They wear their heart's on their sleeves when it comes to their art and can perhaps be a bit more sensitive than other people. I speak from experience. I enjoy this forum more than any other on the net, but maybe some of us (me included) should remember that these are real people we are talking about and as it is on the internet, it can be accessed by anyone, anywhere who has internet connection. Just a thought. I'm of the opinion that negative comments should be allowed to be expressed here, so long as they are not abusive, but negative threads are simply not constructive.

[Esoteric]

whoa! I would like to say something about myself, steve, Ken etc--nothing is more annoying to have people spouting crap generalisms about labels when they know nothing about our individual situations.

We put ourselves out here, others dont, but it doesnt mean we are fair game to be insulted. The problem is it can get out of hand. One guy in particular seems to have it in for our label. Im pretty thick skinned these days but I do think a reasonable amount of success can actually count against you, you become the dreaded "big" label in peoples eyes.

Kerry--you are a great guy who posts in a fun, logical and sensible way and really dont deserve that kind of stick and if niceness got the deals--you would have no trouble at all--will email you.

[zombywoof]

Forgot to mention, Esoteric is another fantastic label that seems to do things right. Keep up the good work!

[Plasmatopia]

No idea why this thread is devolving into a discussion of labels...seems irrelevant.

[Sean]

Actually, it is displaying some of what we are talking about. Roll on!

[NogbadTheBad]

No idea why this thread is devolving into a discussion of labels...seems irrelevant.

Here's is Sean's clarification of the intent of the thread, bold added for effect, so yes I'd say discussions of labels is entirely relevant.


I was talking about the prog scene's players, artists, mgt, and fans. Nothing beyond that. The rest of the world is oblivious to us and prog too. And don't think the prog scene starts and stops here, there's many who lurk we are never aware of. I am curious what they think too.

[Yodelgoat]

Whew. I'm not really all that bad - I'm just drawn that way....

Yes, I believe with all my heart that in this day, labels are a problem. If I had chosen to remain independent from a label, I would be better off as a musician. I didn't, and I have regrets. I actually like the owner of my label, but I recognize that he is making money off my music (admittedly, not anything he can retire on) but I will never see a penny from my stupidity. He made a good deal and I made a bad one. Thats my main story. Now with cunneiform (I had no idea) or whatever, that is the issue. He should not be allowed to say that he is above the issue - He IS the issue. Making a deal that is a win, win... thats a dream that perhaps Cunneiform is perfectly right to claim, but thats was NOT my experience (with a different label). I think Labels do very little to help bands, at least in this current environment. I think they prey on the history of labels, which is to make the artist think he is something special (by being "signed") and then, by a twist of fate far beyond their control the Label gives the atrist an appearance of legitimacy (by them being a "signed" act) and yet merely skims off profits, that a truly exceptional artist would have recieved anyway. I want to make clear... I dont consider what I have done in the past to be in that category... I just was doing better as an unsigned at than I ever did as a signed artist.

Now I ask you.. Is saying that some sort of crime? - Of course I have a certain contempt for Labels, but it isnt personal. Its based on my own REAL experience. Should that mean nothing? - ("a woman scorned..."?) I would not trade my experience with my label for anything, but the lesson here is clear for Others... stay clear of the deal. Keep your music your own. Places like PE will make your choice of independence the right one.

THats my story and I'll carry it to my grave. If Cunneiform is somehow different, My aoplogies, but Run! Run! Run! from them. They only exist to make money (by very definition, they only exist IF they make money) - not for you but for themselves. Thats not an accusation, thats the absolute truth. The world has changed. All but the most Famous (and that is debatable) do not need a label.

Please, Find the "hate" in that.

[Esoteric]

oops--hit the button too quick. What I wanted to mention just from my own perception is that although the site functions magnificently technically--I almost feel it has been too subsectioned to the point where I find it hard to just pop in and have a quick scan read as I used to for keeping up to date. If I go to the "new posts" function there are so many that I can easily lose site of something that i would like to have seen and now is 2 pages back and end up having to go through the sections.

Also it can be a bit frustrating because I have to post any PR/news in whats on/new etc--I could sign a reformed Pink Floyd and still have to post in that section and then rely on someone to think maybe people would want to know about that on the main page. Its not as if Im going to SPAM you with totally irrelevant posts. Personally I would have been quite happy with the huge technical improvements (and there are many) and a "main page", "OT page" (books, deaths, films, families etc) and a "WTF" page-if people wanted to talk about politics or something that was out of scope/controversial etc. I do think those of us like Steve, Ken and myself who have been around since the year dot and deal with multiple artists within this genre should be allowed to post on the main page. Its not as if there are that many of us-- unless Inside Out and K Scope decide to join in--

[Steve F.]

Of course I have a certain contempt for Labels, but it isnt personal. Its based on my own REAL experience.

Here's my real world experience. There are people out there who are unrealistic and expect everything to just happen for them because they put a record out. They put no work into it and then blame the label when people don't buy the record.

Maybe you had no luck with labels because people didn't like your music or didn't hear it because you made no effort to go out on the road and promote your music. Maybe the labels should have run away from you!

[Jefferson James]

Kerry--you are a great guy who posts in a fun, logical and sensible way and really dont deserve that kind of stick and if niceness got the deals--you would have no trouble at all--will email you.

Thank you Vicky! :)


although the site functions magnificently technically--I almost feel it has been too subsectioned to the point where I find it hard to just pop in and have a quick scan read as I used to for keeping up to date. If I go to the "new posts" function there are so many that I can easily lose site of something that i would like to have seen and now is 2 pages back and end up having to go through the sections.

This very thread is an example of why, perhaps, topics are less well-developed here on the new PEV3 -- this thread was originally under the "OT" page and was moved to "Discuss Site Issues". I have never even seen the "Discuss Site Issues" page and if I had, I would've thought it was about technical details and would've likely never opened the page. I had to go to my profile and check my recent posts to find where the thread was moved to -- kind of a hassle but it is what it is.

[Esoteric]

YodelGoat

I am sorry you had a bad deal but I dont know the ins and outs of what deal you had, so i cant comment.

Basically a lot of this comes down to pure sales.

If an artist can sell significant numbers and has a proven track record he is likley to be offered a good deal/advances etc. Now, that isnt to say he couldnt have made the same money as this-in fact more in some cases by doing his own thing but there are some artists who actually want to get on with other things, have another job, dont want to spend all day dealing with mail order, sending out to wholesalers, chasing up payments from said wholesalers, sorting out any press, paying for adverts etc etc. They can find that in theory they would make more money but when they start adding in all the postage for promos, covermounts, adverts, manufacture etc, there isnt actually that much in it and they can be sat on stock too. They can actually make more by letting someone else do it, get thier royalties/publishing payments and also have another job -be it full time or part time. Some artists too really dont want the upfront costs of mastering, artwork, doing a CD run in case they dont sell etc and just dont want the risk. It really is a very individual thing. There are some bad deals out there, some deals where its a decent deal but the artist doesnt really sell enough to make it a great deal for both parties and the costs incurred are actually higher than the sales and there are some where its a win, win from both sides. I really think it depends on what someone is trying to achieve. From a PR angle I would say in most cases that being signed will usually help profile----but that does depend on how good you are, how others perceeive the music and a fair bit of luck too. Of course we want to make money, it isnt a charity --but I also want the artists to make good money too, if we arent making money, then they arent either. Im very proud of the fact that quite a few artists have told me they have made more from some reissues we have done, then they had ever received before. It gives me a buzz.

[Yodelgoat]

Maybe you had no luck with labels because people didn't like your music or didn't hear it because you made no effort to go out on the road and promote your music. Maybe the labels should have run away from you!

Amen! brother. Yep, that was me. This was not the case 30 years ago. But yes, you are absolutely right and I have absolutely no excuse - just a story to tell. The only issue I have with this observation, is that the label has made money, so they had no reason to run from me. I take full responsibility for my actions. But that doesnt mean I have no reason to talk of my experience, Its legit.

[Esoteric]

Here's my real world experience. There are people out there who are unrealistic and expect everything to just happen for them because they put a record out. They put no work into it and then blame the label when people don't buy the record.

Maybe you had no luck with labels because people didn't like your music or didn't hear it because you made no effort to go out on the road and promote your music. Maybe the labels should have run away from you!

Totally agree Steve. I would on this point like to make a special mention here for Lifesigns. John, Nick and Frosty have worked thier ar*** off to promote this album --and been quite innovative too. As they arent touring they knew they would have to work enormously hard on their social networking every day and this they have done. They have done everything and its mother promo wise, rounded up all the troops, made sure a copy was thrust in any one who might helps mitts and kept on our case stock wise (now on a 4th repress) --boy has John treated it like a full time job and of course it has appealed to many too big time including Prog.

On a similar vein with Kerry--one of the things that impressed me with Kerry always was his ability to link with fans and social network but without ever being an ar**. Same with Matt Stevens---now I cant make these guys sell but it does make it easier for me to actually think they might sell, because I can see their profile, can see that if I sent them over interviews they would get them done, can imagine them getting on with the journalists, not being divas on a live date, etc. A great personality wont get you the deal if its the wrong time , wont make you sell necessarily if the interest just isnt there-- but it sure makes it easier for people to think that you are going to be better to work with and being bitter and opinionated sure as hell probably wont get you the deal or fan support--unless of course you are already have a track record of selling shedloads.

[NogbadTheBad]

If you auto subscribe to threads you post in you don't need to find the individual threads, they appear under Settings.

[Gruno]

I had to go to my profile and check my recent posts to find where the thread was moved to -- kind of a hassle but it is what it is.

If you set your preferences to automatically subscribe to the threads you post in, you could find them very, very easily by checking your thread subscriptions for new posts :up

[Gruno]

NogbadTheBad ;) -- posted at same time!

[NogbadTheBad]

NogbadTheBad ;) -- posted at same time!I think you me and Scott are become evangelists about easy this actually is :D

[Jerjo]

I just look at new posts. That merges everything and whatever is hot in on the first page.

[trurl]

I just look at new posts. That merges everything and whatever is hot in on the first page.

That's what I do- that's how I saw this thread in the first place. (Wow, radical thread shift! :P)

[zombywoof]

What I see from labels like Cuneiform and Esoteric is a return to the way a lot of labels used to be, and that is an instant trust. Oftentimes, what seals the deal for me when deciding on what to buy is that name that, to me, means quality and a sign that I will enjoy it. For instance, I don't think I've bought an album I don't like from either label. That's a sign you're doing something right.

[moecurlythanu]

The fact that we offer both sides of the coin when it comes to musical discussion has endeared us to some and disgusted & "horrified" others.

I'm guessing you put "horrified" in quotes because it was a quote, & I'll bet the back story on that one is hysterical. (Because "horrified" would be an overreaction regardless.)

[ohiomark]

From the TERMS OF SERVICE
5). Please enlighten us with your positive views. It is unnecessary and destructive to tell us about music you hate. Do not start threads about music you don't like and do not post confrontational messages to threads about music you don't like. Feel free to express negative opinions as long as they are enlightening and respectful of the tastes of others, and in the spirit of critical debate. The moderators will not mediate inter-personal arguments. If you feel that any member is bullying or being consistently confrontational, you must use the "ignore" feature.
Please read it again

I have less and less time/energy to read everything on PE nor everything in this thread, but I am glad you posted this, Duncan, and it bothers me that if this "term of service" is in place, that it is not enforced. Earlier today, I took no pleasure in opening a really dopey thread started by the OP about how he hates, basically, everything that is "jazz." What an infuriating thing to see. I really, really, really don't care what people *don't* like. You hate so-and-so's music? Great. Shut up and go away...or at least go listen to what you do like and tell us about it. I hate boy bands and rap. But I don't need to wave a freaking flag about it.

[Esoteric]

Yep--why I hate XXXX threads as a starter --should be instant shut down.

Now if during the course of a thread, someone then says, I really dont like XXX because XXX then fair enough but to start with an I hate XXX is not good --oh and by the way, I dont like country of rap but would defend anyones rights to love em. One reason I like working for Cherry Red is we have a label to cover virtually everything reggae, country, americana, rock, blues, soul, 80's pop etc and we all have a different label identity. Makes for a very interesting xmas party!! I also think maybe some of the more "fun" threads are now a bit more tucked away and take a bit more finding--which I miss--.

[Sean]

I agree the I Hate angle is lame. In the case of the Jazz one it actually morphed into a fantatsic, informative thread. We got lucky.

[strawberrybrick]

I can often glean more from what a person doesn't like, than from what they do like, especially if they take the time to articulate their thoughts. "Critique", right? Just sayin...

On a separate note, I would like to point this out: Two people on PE know me from the "outside" world, and oddly enough both are drummers, and very good friends. We have a mutual love for music, but also family, etc, things outside of music that seal our friendships. The rest, sorry to say, you don't know who I am.

I sometimes feel misunderstood with what I write here, and often as I read through PE I try too to figure what someone is really on about. But it's just a handful of posts, a bunch of words, probably typed quickly, etc... But I really have no idea of who that person is either.

So why anyone would get personal over what gets posted here is really disheartening.

[LASERCD]

I don't find this site to be any more hate filled than any other I read. Well maybe a little more. If you really want to suck in the hate go to the PM:X board.

Just picking up on something that Steve and Vicky said. I noticed years ago on PE that there is a lot of animosity directed towards record labels from consumers on this forum. Things are said here that would never be said in person to Steve or myself. Can you imagine that someone actually called me a counterfeiter and the moderators did nothing?

I learned a lesson years ago. Although I read PE through out the day I rarely post on these forums any longer. I almost never promote my bands here (which is sort of silly if you think about it). In the past, I've been told second hand, that I was considered a spammer. So I stopped posting. Anything I posted was given scrutiny as though I had an ulterior motive. If a post on PE crops up that asks a question about one of our artists I'll answer if asked. Otherwise I keep silent. I see way too much backlash against our bands on this forum. If the bands want to participate directly I think its wonderful and there seems to be general acceptance. Whatever love our bands get here is deeply appreciated and has some impact. On the other hand, I found the reaction to my participation on the forum a bit odd but that's just the way it is.

[Steve F.]

I don't find this site to be any more hate filled than any other I read. Well maybe a little more. ...Things are said here that would never be said in person to Steve or myself.

Thank you.

My point of my post was to call attention to the fact that I find it hateful and other people I know (musicians, folks in the biz) call it The Hateful Forum.

The person who coined that term made me laugh when he did so in a conversation, and when he did so, I knew exactly what forum he was talking about!

There's all this pretend caring here about 'this music' and why isn't there any interest in 'this music'.

But as you can see from several posts from people in addition to me who spend their lives working with 'this music', they don't think it's such a friendly place.

As Ken says "I find the reaction to my participation on the forum a bit odd". I just used a stronger word than odd....

[strawberrybrick]

Things are said here that would never be said in person

Bingo. Grand Slam. Before you post, ask yourself "would I tell that to them in person, to their face"?

Everyone has to defend what they write, but no one should have to defend themselves as persons.

I'm really not sure what moderators do here, but honestly, when people get personal - and it's quite obvious - that's worth moderation.

[moecurlythanu]

On the other hand, I found the reaction to my participation on the forum a bit odd but that's just the way it is.

Speaking only for myself, I wish you'd post more often. I've rarely seen you go into depth about the 70s live scene, or dish on obscurities that may be even now under the radar. I would expect your posts to be immensely informative and entertaining on both of those subjects. Fwiw.

[progeezer]

Two people on PE know me from the "outside" world, and oddly enough both are drummers, and very good friends.
I'm a singer, not a drummer, and I know you. There are many other people on PE that know you beyond virtually. Did you forget?;)

I've never had the pleasure of meeting Vicky, but we have enough mutual friends on her side of the pond that I have no doubt based on their comments that I would enjoy it thoroughly.

I do know both Steve F. and Ken, and they are both, along with Vicky, afaic, straight-shooters who are sincere and dedicated to doing whatever they can to advance their artists and satisfy their customers.

I own releases on Esoteric, Cuneiform and Laser's Edge, as I'm sure many others here do. These 3 people (& others) are doing a job daily that benefits all lovers of prog, and a job that most lovers of prog wouldn't want to tackle themselves imo.

[Progatron]

I admit to being somewhat out of the loop as to what has gone on with the labels posting here, and why that would ever lead to negativity, so my view is this: I like hearing about releases, bands, etc. because my major hobby is buying prog CDs, almost entirely online. If these people are not simply spamming (which none of them are, as far as I can tell), I for one welcome their participation here. Do they have something to gain by promoting their artists/catalogues? Yes, of course they do. But so what? So do we. It's win-win, and those who are uninterested can skip the threads/posts. I'm every bit as interested in their input as I am from the rest of the forumers. I'd hate to think that I would miss out on information that I may find interesting because these people felt their posts were unwelcome. Nobody should ever be made to feel as though they should take a back seat. That's my five cents (sorry, I have to round up from two cents because here in Canada we have done away with the penny).

BTW, I've bought quite a lot of discs particularly from Lasers Edge, Synphonic and Kinesis over the years and I have always received top-notch service. I'm happy to have a fantastic selection of music on my shelves as a result.

[Plasmatopia]

Actually, it is displaying some of what we are talking about. Roll on!

After reading some of the last few posts from the label guys I'm starting to understand their relevance to this discussion, even if I can't say it's something I ever noticed. Maybe I just haven't been in the right threads or it never occurred to me that label owners were being treated differently so it just wasn't something I noticed. Consider me on alert now.

[NogbadTheBad]

Personally I would love Ken, Vicky & Steve to feel comfortable enough to post artist tour & release news without worrying about being considered spammers. I understand that it could open the door to a bunch of other spammers but I feel those three cater for our particular niche and could easily be skipped by those not interested. I for one always look forward to their posts.

[zombywoof]

^ You aren't the only one.

[Scott Bails]

Maybe that's why I don't get Steve's comments, as I never considered any of our label-associated members to be purveyors of spam.

Either way, I'm in agreement that I'd like to hear more from them, as I love to get the "insider's" perspective on things. I always loved when Billy Sherwood would dish about Yes stuff, and when Squids tells his stories.

[NogbadTheBad]

Of course I have a certain contempt for Labels, but it isnt personal. Its based on my own REAL experience.

but Run! Run! Run! from them. They only exist to make money (by very definition, they only exist IF they make money) - not for you but for themselves. Thats not an accusation, thats the absolute truth.

When Yodel throws around these types of comments it's hardly surprising that small label owners, who struggle to stay in existence and are part of the process that keeps niche music alive, take offense.

[80s were ok]

I don't know Yodel or any of the labels or anything...but what I do know is that if someone is complaining about everyone, that someone is usually the one at fault.

[100423]

I don't know Yodel or any of the labels or anything...but what I do know is that if someone is complaining about everyone, that someone is usually the one at fault.
+1
I for one would love to hear more about releases from the good folks who have labels who post here.

[Yodelgoat]

I don't know Yodel or any of the labels or anything...but what I do know is that if someone is complaining about everyone, that someone is usually the one at fault.

Wow, 80's! youve got a new foundation for a system of justice that just rocks!

Where is that ignore button?

[80s were ok]

As I stated, I don't know you, the labels, all the issues etc...just making a general statement about people but... .. Yes, where IS that ignore button.

[Duncan Glenday]

Vicky,

I understand the problem - but there's a very easy fix for that - as described in the next 2 posts:


If you auto subscribe to threads you post in you don't need to find the individual threads, they appear under Settings.


If you set your preferences to automatically subscribe to the threads you post in, you could find them very, very easily by checking your thread subscriptions for new posts :up

I never lose track of threads I've posted in, because I've changed my preferences to automatically subscribe me to threads I've posted or started.

The first thing I do when getting on PE is:
- Click "Quick links"
- Click "Subscribed Threads".
Bingo - there are all of my threads, in just 2 clicks.

Only then do I go to "New Posts"...

[progeezer]

Is there a way to retroactively subscribe to the threads you already posted in, or it is strictly prospective (future threads after changing settings)?

[Duncan Glenday]

I don't find this site to be any more hate filled than any other I read. Well maybe a little more. If you really want to suck in the hate go to the PM:X board.

Just picking up on something that Steve and Vicky said. I noticed years ago on PE that there is a lot of animosity directed towards record labels from consumers on this forum. Things are said here that would never be said in person to Steve or myself. Can you imagine that someone actually called me a counterfeiter and the moderators did nothing?

I learned a lesson years ago. Although I read PE through out the day I rarely post on these forums any longer. I almost never promote my bands here (which is sort of silly if you think about it). In the past, I've been told second hand, that I was considered a spammer. So I stopped posting. Anything I posted was given scrutiny as though I had an ulterior motive. If a post on PE crops up that asks a question about one of our artists I'll answer if asked. Otherwise I keep silent. I see way too much backlash against our bands on this forum. If the bands want to participate directly I think its wonderful and there seems to be general acceptance. Whatever love our bands get here is deeply appreciated and has some impact. On the other hand, I found the reaction to my participation on the forum a bit odd but that's just the way it is.

Ken,

As you (and Stave and Vicky and others) know, over the years, we have had spammers on the site. Wannabe labels, promoters, artists, and so on. When we blocked their promotions but allowed yours, that is seen to be inconsistent. So we tried to block all promotions, but that was unpopular with you guys - the more established players - and some of the members got uppity.

A few years ago, on the old site, you guys (not sure exactly who, but I seem to recall it was Steve and Ken) urged us to create a separate forum where promotions were allowed. The technology did not allow us to do that, but we took notes.

The PEv3 system allows more than 2 forums, and from day-one, we provided a forum for exactly what was requested - the "What's On, What's New" forum was created because of that request. I.e. long-standing legit labels and startups could promote, announce, share information, and so on at will, and no one can ever accuse them of spamming.

You're welcome ;)



(And now - other PE members are bitching about too many forums :roll)

[Duncan Glenday]

Steve,


Is there a way to retroactively subscribe to the threads you already posted in, or it is strictly prospective (future threads after changing settings)?

Yes.


Open a thread you want to follow.
Click "Thread Tools" (just above the first post on every page)
Click "Subscribe to this thread"
:up

[Jerjo]

What if, provided we all behave ourselves, we had a separate unit for prog labels like the ones mentioned here to announce new releases. Of course, something would have to be done for the guys that work without a net like Yodel as well. I hate those jerks that join up and spam on the same day. But a thread with camples from someone who contributes to the dialog here is always a sure ticket to get me to buy. I just got my copy of that Diagonal rekid from Steve but I would have never heard of it if there had not been an enthusiastic thread here. I've bought several discs/downloads from artists without labels as well. I still consider Empheral Sun's Harvest Aorta one of the best releases of that year (2009?). Yeah, it would take some moderation but hell, give me camples and if I like it, I'll buy. And if I don't like it, I shut the hell up and move on.

[progeezer]

Thanks, Dunc!

[Duncan Glenday]

Bingo. Grand Slam. Before you post, ask yourself "would I tell that to them in person, to their face"?


Ya know, that may be a good line to add to item 5 in the ToS.



I'm really not sure what moderators do here, but honestly, when people get personal - and it's quite obvious - that's worth moderation.

The moderators don't have day-jobs. We scan PE all day, read every post on every thread (almost 60,000 so far) looking for bad posts, and we deal with them there and then.

'Scuze my lame sarcasm ;) but you know what I mean. Following your, Steve's, Ken's, and a few other folks's comments ... here's something I posted so often on the old site, I kept it - because I had to repeat it every few months. Here it is again.


The moderators have day jobs, and can obviously not monitor the boards 24/7. There are far too many threads for every post to be read, or even for the moderators to collaborate on anything. We try to be consistent, but cannot always manage.

Until someone can afford to pay one of us a full-time salary to moderate the board the way you want, please do not demand - or expect - any consistency. It isn't perfect, but we do our very best, and the moderators are not in the habit of explaining their actions.

If anyone has a problem with this, or with any other issues on PE, feel free to PM one of the moderators.

[Duncan Glenday]

What if, provided we all behave ourselves, we had a separate unit for prog labels like the ones mentioned here to announce new releases. Of course, something would have to be done for the guys that work without a net like Yodel as well. I hate those jerks that join up and spam on the same day. But a thread with camples from someone who contributes to the dialog here is always a sure ticket to get me to buy. I just got my copy of that Diagonal rekid from Steve but I would have never heard of it if there had not been an enthusiastic thread here. I've bought several discs/downloads from artists without labels as well. I still consider Empheral Sun's Harvest Aorta one of the best releases of that year (2009?). Yeah, it would take some moderation but hell, give me camples and if I like it, I'll buy. And if I don't like it, I shut the hell up and move on.

Scroll up to post # 165 ;)

[Duncan Glenday]

Vicky,

I understand the problem - but there's a very easy fix for that - as described in the next 2 posts:

I never lose track of threads I've posted in, because I've changed my preferences to automatically subscribe me to threads I've posted or started.

The first thing I do when getting on PE is:
- Click "Quick links"
- Click "Subscribed Threads".
Bingo - there are all of my threads, in just 2 clicks.

Only then do I go to "New Posts"...

I just made it easier.

There's now an option on the navigation bar called "Subscribed Threads". It does the same thing as the "Bookmark Threads" feature on the old PEv2 system.

[Jerjo]

Goddammit Duncan, you posted that while I was writing mine, didn't you! I'm going to report that post to the mods and...oh, never mind.

[Adrian]

Going back to Sean's original question -- I can only go by the two prog "celebrities" who I know have posted here, because they used their real names: Billy Sherwood, and Martin Orford. Billy walked off in a huff, and I remember Martin scolding everybody in general about illegal downloads and how he didn't like the term "neo-prog." And apparently Geoff Downes has either posted here or at least lurked. But the less I say about Geoff Downes, the better.

I've never had my work held up to public scrutiny, so I don't know what it would be like to be an artist and then to find criticism of your hard work on an online forum. That being said, this forum is very tame compared with most. And for the few who like to stir things up around here, I'd hope the artists would stick around long enough to be able to figure out some of the personalities around here and then consider the source. Some people just can't help going negative.

"Would you say it to someone's face" is great advice for anywhere on the Internet. It's so easy to be a jerk from behind the anonymous safety of your computer, and it's apparently easy to forget that there is another human being with feelings on the other end of those nasty comments. I don't like mean people, and I don't like bullies, and that's why I've always had zero tolerance for trolls. I'm really glad we seem to have lost our biggest troll with the demise of v2.0, but there are still people here who deliberately make provocative comments merely for the sake of starting an argument. Conversely, there are also people here with really thin skin who'll fly off the handle at the slightest provocation -- someone who's in this very thread once went ballistic at 2.0 over an off-topic post and demanded it be shut down immediately. It's a shame that there are people like that, and if it takes more stringent moderation to keep those people in line, I'm all for it. This should be a welcoming place, where we can feel free to debate and discuss, but not have to worry about petty personal attacks and deliberate attempts to push people's buttons. I also agree that the negative-themed threads ("Which album by this artist do you hate the most?") really have no place here. A quick review of the site's TOS would reveal that that's not the kind of discussion Sean et al. want here. There's enough negativity on the Internet already.

As for feeling welcome here in general, I've been at PE for almost seven years, but I still feel like an outsider, and I doubt most people would even notice if I never posted again. Yes, PE is cliquish, but then so is just about any online community. And I don't have the assertive personality to put myself out there in a way that would ever catapult me into the "popular kids" crowd. But one time I got fed up with PE and bailed, and Sean actually sent me a personal e-mail to check in and make sure I was OK. That meant so much to me that I came back, and I've been here ever since. Sean is a great guy who cares about PE and about the people who make up the community. So when I have anything critical to say about this place, it is not a reflection on Sean or any of the mods. I think they do a great job, considering they have to fit this place in around their real jobs. I've reeled in my online presence, both here and elsewhere, quite a bit this year, because I just get tired of all the bickering and the drama. But I'm quite happy to stick around here and watch the music discussions. I've discovered a lot of music thanks to this site, and to me that's its biggest benefit of all.

[Duncan Glenday]

Goddammit Duncan, you posted that while I was writing mine, didn't you! I'm going to report that post to the mods and...oh, never mind.

:lol

[Trane]

it comes as a bit of a surprise that Ken, Steve and Vicky (or even Pat of Galileo) are feeling awkward about posting stuff for and from their label, and fear to be considered as spammers. All three are valuable contributors and their labels are entirely within the subject aimed by the site (methinkc anyway)

on my behalf (not an admin, I know), please feel free to post away


Steve,


Quote Originally Posted by progeezer View Post
Is there a way to retroactively subscribe to the threads you already posted in, or it is strictly prospective (future threads after changing settings)?

Yes.


Open a thread you want to follow.
Click "Thread Tools" (just above the first post on every page)
Click "Subscribe to this thread"
:up


easier still, just post on itthe thread and you're automatically subscribed to it, if your settings are set up right

[Trane]

But on the other hand, there's an equal case to be made for allowing the fan-base to be as supportive or as critical as they like. They vote on the product they buy with their dollars and their opinions - same as any other product. The artists' target market is the public - and love them or hate them, THIS IS the public. "The public" is made up of flawed humans who are often mean-spirited, and critical. Not just fawning fans.

yeah, I'd say that most of the forum I participate to (not that there are dozens) are mostly consumer/fan-axed, and to be honest, I often find it unsettling when the artistes post there as well (not a problem at all, but

As for real hi-profile artistes (Sherwood and that Yes-guy - forget his name as I write - are not in that category,IMHO... with all due respect to both), I have a hard time believing they're lurking in sites to see what's said about them and their work. I'd rather think they're either above that, or have better things to do with their all-too-rare-and-precious free time to do that... Maybe they got someone to do it for them, though... But yeah, google is indeed a dirty big snitch

I don't find PE particularly hateful (some of the RYM-ers are much more brutal), but yeah, the going can get a bit rough at times. A weak post (or weakly constructed post) can be shot down in flames and held grudgingly against the writer for weeks on end, if not longer
Because there is some kind of real community here (a lot of North Am members have met on numerous occasions), the place may appear as somewhat clique-ish, and this might frighten a few away

[Vic2012]

I think it was "80s Were Ok" who said something a couple pages ago that I generally agree with (I can't find the damn post. I wish there was a way of marking a post on a thread so one can go back and find it later): That well known, celebrity musicians who are part of the legacy of prog/rock probably shouldn't be posting on forums such as these. I mean, unless they're very thick skinned, and can stay anonymous by not letting anyone know who they are then maybe they can mix among us commoners. I mean, can you imagine Chris Squire or Jon Anderson just openly identifying themselves here and opening themselves up to all kinds of comments and insanity? You know there'd be a few members out there that just have to hardball them just get a rise out of them. Plus, I kinda wanna believe that those guys have better things to do than spend free time talking with strangers on an internet message board. Could you imagine if Neal Morse joined PE and openly started promoting his albums, concerts, (and his religious beliefs)? It would be entertaining to watch for a while but then it would just get embarrassing. The only well-known musician here that I can think of who fits in well without getting into to trouble is Mike Keneally. I've never seen Mike in any type of flame war with anyone here. I'm sure the man has better things to do. If there are other "big names" here I'm not aware of them (I'm referring to "prog celebrities," I know there are hundreds of unknown prog musicians here).

I honestly thought the whole thing with Nektar, Billy Sherwood, (and whoever else) was embarrassing. I didn't find that entertaining at all. And then seeing how everyone just ganged up on Billy and told him not to let the door hit him on the way out was completely classless. I've said this for years, the only thing I truly dispise about human nature is the mob mentallity. Once someone gets "tagged" everyone joins in to mock and bully that person. It's really embarrassing and classless. Whether Billy "deserved" it or not, the way people (the core, popular members) behaved toward him was wrong. I was really surprised that the mods let that go on as long as they did.

As far as "negative" threads, ala "I Hate Jazz" go. I don't have a problem with that at all. As it was mentioned earlier, those types of threads can actually be informative. Yeah, they're entertaining (for me anyway) but you know damn well that people who don't hate [insert name of band, song, artist, blah blah] are gonna defend them, so it can often turn into a very educational thread. Maybe it's just me but I don't get people who get twisted into a pretzel emotionally over an innocuous thread about something you dislike and want to talk about (then again, I'm not in the "biz" so I don't really care). I've always found "pet peeve" threads entertaining. If you find it boring, ignore it. Why poke your head in the thread just to wave your finger at everyone. Sheesh, is it that hard to resist opening the thread? But that's just me, and I know the TOS discourage those types of threads.

[Poisoned Youth]

And then seeing how everyone just ganged up on Billy and told him not to let the door hit him on the way out was completely classless. I've said this for years, the only thing I truly dispise about human nature is the mob mentallity.

And one thing I despise is bloodsport, people who sit on the sidelines and egg it one because they find things amusing. There's a mentality that can emerge here in which people find conflict between posters here entertaining.

Regarding Billy Sherwood, and artists in general, I have a completely different perspective. Just because you write music doesn't give you carte blanche to be an ass. You come to an internet forum to promote yourself and hopefully interact. There's been lots of times where an artist has popped in to talk and it's been fantastic. And I mean many obscure artists as well.

Martin Orford was actually quite fun to interact with. I tried several times to reason with him regarding his views on downloading to no avail. I wish he would have stuck around, but I think he was more bitter than anything and couldn't get beyond that. When he came back to the site a second time to air IQ's dirty laundry in public, he lost the endearment of many.

Billy Sherwood was an ass, to put it plainly. He got into it with some fairly reasonable people at PE. If you were one of them, you might feel differently. Billy was all about the limelight and he was very fortunate to have sycophants to feed it. He caused his own problems at PE, and I will stand firm on the side that is fine with him being gone. I think what some people miss was his Yes gossip quite frankly.

[Poisoned Youth]

Regarding the labels/shops around here, I think Duncan put it best in the sense that PE has always showed deference to well established labels and promoters such as LE, Cunei, Esoteric, and Syn-Phonic. I think from a business standpoint, they've always been respectful back to the forum by not "overdoing it". There have been a few that have been entirely self-serving and have given the labels/promoters a bad name (please don't make me name them). This goes with some of the PE artist talent as well.

And yes, there is a new PE forum for promotion that many new artists/labels/shops have used and we're grateful for that cooperation. Even with that said, we've "slipped" certain promotional items on the main forum for those that have earned that kind of latitude. That may be deemed as inconsistent, but that's the way it is.

Regarding the whole Yodel/Cunei thing, all I have to say is give me a break. Yes, it can illustrate some of the issues we have interacting at PE, but it also illustrates how things get out of hand quickly. When someone is taking such an extreme position, it's a waste of time to try to change their mind.

[Poisoned Youth]

^Like what? Ban certain people? Ban certain topics? Ban featured CDs that only like three people open and discuss?
<snip>
Just because y'all don't feel it, doesn't mean the rest of us don't. And just because I don't comment on every bizarre featured CD, doesn't mean I don't open them and check them out.

I guess the question is: how do you define "really special" and "rebirth"? What were you expecting?

I don't really expect a rebirth myself. As a long time poster here, I feel like PE's best days have come and gone. Of course, this is because I came here to discuss music. I feel like some of the truly thought provoking musical discussion has waned.

Also, while we are all "prog fans", we are at several different levels in our musical journey. Some people are musically insatiable, others won't touch anything made after 1976. Some like only symph/neo. Some only like avant-garde. Some like everything. For me personally, I miss the contributions of dozens of posters that could communicate musically on a "breadth level" (you know, those featured CDs no one can talk about). They simply aren't around anymore or care to post. The ones that were here got tired of their threads sinking like a stone as the pool of those that could contribute declined and it seemed clear that who remained was less interested in proactively seeking out new music. That has significantly reduced my urge not only to post new threads, but I used to give people recommendations and opinions all the time. Those threads come few and far between these days.

That's my own personal opinion. You're free to disagree. Some people come here for the emoticons. But that is what made PE of interest to me.

[Poisoned Youth]

Ban featured CDs that only like three people open and discuss?

Perhaps. :)

FWIW, I did conduct a little experiment here over the last few weeks. I've been featuring CDs that at least 40% of the raters on Gnosis have rated, all from the 70s. The majority of them got 10-15 replies, many times from the same set of people.

Before that I featured 10 discs from 2003, which got about the same level of response.

[Poisoned Youth]

I guess I don't understand the whole "rebirth" thing - if this site is lacking anything, it's up to the members to provide it, IMO. Logistically, software-wise, this place is freaking awesome.

PE lives and dies on the quality of its content and subsequent participation.

I think PEv3 illustrates that, in general, people prefer to talk about the same 25 bands over and over as well as non-musical topics like current events and sports.

[Poisoned Youth]

After thinking about this thread, I will admit to one flaw about this board. Sometimes its hard to have a negative or contrary opinion without getting a swarm of sarcastic, snarky responses.

It's always been difficult to present a critical opinion on PE. It's a truism on many forums. No one questions when someone writes "THIS IS THE GREATEST FUCKING ALBUM EVER!!!", but say "this album disappointed me, and I really don't like the new guitar player" and you'll usually be met with at least one person asking you to defend your opinion.

[Poisoned Youth]

Honestly?

I'd suggest PMs and temporary bans for folks that get out of hand. And for those that "cross the line," actual permanent bans (i.e. not a ban where you just sign up again under a different name).

You make it sound so simple. :)

[Poisoned Youth]

Having people like Vicky, Steve F, trurl, Phideaux & Mike Johnson here is a huge boon to this place. I find the threads they contribute to be the most insightful on the real workings of the business and often very entertaining.

Amen.

[polmico]

I just get tired of all the bickering and the drama. But I'm quite happy to stick around here and watch the music discussions. I've discovered a lot of music thanks to this site, and to me that's its biggest benefit of all.

Great post all around Adrian, especially the bit about Sean. But this part in particular caught my eye because there are people on this site who open threads and even post in them just to watch the "train wreck."

There are topics on this site that will always cause arguments. When I joined (about five years ago) it was Genesis because Genesis was touring. Every day there was a new Genesis thread devoted to every tiny aspect of the band, and every thread always devolved into bickering. Now it's Yes.

You have nailed the biggest asset of this site, but--and perhaps it's because I'm part of the sports clique (or at least I think I am; maybe everyone else really hates me)--I do feel like the community aspect of this site is something special.

[polmico]

It's always been difficult to present a critical opinion on PE.

I'd say it's easier when discussing some bands. Crimson can usually have a thread with more than a few dissenting voices without it melting down. The SW thread has had more than a few negative comments, but (for the most part) it has not become hostile.

[Poisoned Youth]

I'm really not sure what moderators do here, but honestly, when people get personal - and it's quite obvious - that's worth moderation.

The little exclamation point icon at the bottom of a post allows posters to report a post like the moderate button on PEv2. I say this because we DO have day jobs and don't follow every thread that can get out of hand. We encourage people to bring things to our attention.

Of course, this doesn't mean we will act on everything (we've gotten a few pretty amusing moderator alerts in the past) .

[Plasmatopia]

I just made it easier.

There's now an option on the navigation bar called "Subscribed Threads". It does the same thing as the "Bookmark Threads" feature on the old PEv2 system.

Good idea, Duncan. But just wanted to let you know since you made this change, at least while using Safari on my iPad, it now says "Donate" behind the white "New Posts" text.

[Plasmatopia]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/plasmaguy7/c6940fd72174840e5b162cff6668dd5f_zps6eb586c4.jpg

[80s were ok]

i've been seeing the above since about 1am est.

[Esoteric]

and thank you for your comments guys--I can see now if I announce the reformation of Pink Floyd--and on Esoteric, you will probably move it over to the main page!! Whilst i dont tend to pop along as mucha s I did--partly because Ive got a ton of new albums in these 3 months as well as reissues , I tend to have more of an hours session, rather than a scan read 3 times a day. Will give the site a mention though on my next mail out--as what I think you probably need is some new blood. Funnily enough I dont think the vast majority of members are anti label and know I get some really appreciative feedback too, I think as moderators you were trying to make sure that everyones was treated fairly which is admirable to some degree--even if it peed off us slightly bigger boys. Personally I would love to be able to do adverts as well, but i know you dont want to go down that route.

One feature I thought would be nice--cant see it but do correct me if Im wrong--and make it a sticky feature on the main page is a "meet the newbie" so that when members join they are very much encouraged to post a bit about themselves, their professional life (if they want to) , music tastes, etc.

I personally like the "community" thing and often think thats more of a "female" thing but I can see that for those who want intense discussions there may be less of it. Sadly I think you probably lost a few people over the years if they got flamed, felt they were being got at etc. Be interesting to see if your viewing figures have gone down a lot over the years as I suspect way more "lookers" than posters. Thats not really an issue if you arent monetising but can make for a less interesting site with the same posters.

[strawberrybrick]

As for feeling welcome here in general, I've been at PE for almost seven years, but I still feel like an outsider, and I doubt most people would even notice if I never posted again. Yes, PE is cliquish, but then so is just about any online community. And I don't have the assertive personality to put myself out there in a way that would ever catapult me into the "popular kids" crowd. I've reeled in my online presence, both here and elsewhere, quite a bit this year, because I just get tired of all the bickering and the drama. But I'm quite happy to stick around here and watch the music discussions. I've discovered a lot of music thanks to this site, and to me that's its biggest benefit of all.

+100

I don't belong to any other sites like this, except for maybe Facebook, so my experience is all here. I'm sure there's something about the middle-aged prog fans or an "otaku" in general, as well as the whole "internet balls" and anonymity of the web, but I have always found this whole "Prog Rock as a Competition" to again be disheartening.

Again, I've met a few people here, had a few beers, had a few conversations, but outside of what we type, I don't really know you and you don't know me. You haven't been to my house, met my kids, drank my beer, bin to the man cave, used my toilets, etc. Not that we should sing Kumbaya and get all warm an fuzzy, but we all have our opinions.... you know the saying!

I for one love the contrarian point of view (!!!), and discussions really aren't if they don't have various sides. That's the STRENGTH of PE. Most folks here really know what they're talking about, and when the thread is strong, it's stimulating to really get into something you love with likeminded people. I've tinkered with adding a forum to my site but never have because of the community here on PE. This is the prog community.

Anyway, I don't really know why so-called "negative" threads are so frowned upon. I'd say that Sean has lightened up over the years in allowing "not good" threads, esp if the subject is carefully worded, and that's good thing - so many topics are recycled again and again (like Talk-Talk threads!!!)

At the end of the day, I have a life outside of PE, and that's what's most important. But I love the prog, and when PE is on, it's the best outlet for something that's such a part of me.

[strawberrybrick]

The moderators don't have day-jobs. We scan PE all day, read every post on every thread (almost 60,000 so far) looking for bad posts, and we deal with them there and then.

'Scuze my lame sarcasm ;) but you know what I mean.

Of course I do. I more than realize that it's the PE'ers who should be policing ourselves, and yes, that little black triangle is on every post.



The PEv3 system allows more than 2 forums, and from day-one, we provided a forum for exactly what was requested - the "What's On, What's New" forum was created because of that request. I.e. long-standing legit labels and startups could promote, announce, share information, and so on at will, and no one can ever accuse them of spamming.


I for one am a fan of the new site and different forums. The What's On What's New is a great place to scan, and the newly reminted Subscribed Threads is just like the ol' bookmarked threads.

Vicky recently posted about the upcoming Warrior reissue, and I promptly created a thread on the album in the main forum. Lots of traffic, it didn't get lost. And now labels/bands whomever can actually see how many people are checking out their threads. I created a thread about Critter's Buggin/Matt Dillon and it got zero replies, but at least people checked it out.

[Duncan Glenday]

Good idea, Duncan. But just wanted to let you know since you made this change, at least while using Safari on my iPad, it now says "Donate" behind the white "New Posts" text.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/plasmaguy7/c6940fd72174840e5b162cff6668dd5f_zps6eb586c4.jpg

Thanks.

That's because your screen is so small, and has a very low resolution. Here's how it looks on mine:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z201/dglenday/PE_Buttons_zpsc6be4fac.png

(See, iPads aren't that great! :p - LOL)



I'll see what I can do to re-work it...

[Duncan Glenday]

Vicky recently posted about the upcoming Warrior reissue, and I promptly created a thread on the album in the main forum. Lots of traffic, it didn't get lost. And now labels/bands whomever can actually see how many people are checking out their threads.

:up:up



I created a thread about Critter's Buggin/Matt Dillon and it got zero replies, but at least people checked it out.

:up:down


Your point is taken - this is exactly how we hoped it would work. The label brought something to everyone's attention, which raised discussion.

Your Dillon post didn't yield any discussion, but with the new system, you're able to see that people have read it - which again means the site is meeting its main objective.

[Plasmatopia]

(See, iPads aren't that great! :p - LOL)

LOL! True in some ways...taking that screenshot was a bit of a pain, for example. But for someone like me, laying in bed sick a fair amount of time this week, it's been pretty convenient. :)

[Duncan Glenday]

Try it now...

[zombywoof]

I can remember only one instance where I was personally attacked on here and felt insulted, and a bunch of you guys jumped to my rescue! The user eventually apologized and we're cool now.

Back to the label discussion, someone mentioned the Diagonal disc. Yes, I'm one of the many who picked up that disc, just because Ken suggested it. I think the same goes for any disc that a label guy here suggests. It automatically pulls more weight, because those guys really know what they are talking about!

[Plasmatopia]

It's different now:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/plasmaguy7/f28ebe36e19bb2568b7cc59cdefd3dd3_zps9a9b4008.jpg

[zombywoof]

It's always been difficult to present a critical opinion on PE. It's a truism on many forums. No one questions when someone writes "THIS IS THE GREATEST FUCKING ALBUM EVER!!!", but say "this album disappointed me, and I really don't like the new guitar player" and you'll usually be met with at least one person asking you to defend your opinion.

Its just the way people are. They get defensive about music they love and I'm no exception. That's why I sprinkle my posts with phrases like 'in my opinion' and 'for me', so my opinions don't come across as facts.

[Duncan Glenday]

It's different now:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/plasmaguy7/f28ebe36e19bb2568b7cc59cdefd3dd3_zps9a9b4008.jpg

Bah - nothing more that we can do, unless we remove some of the menu options. The only thing that MIGHT change it for you is using s different browser.

Will play with it a bit more when I have a few minutes...

[Plasmatopia]

It's not really causing me any issue, just thought you'd want to know. Let me know if you need a hand testing something at some point.

[Duncan Glenday]

Will do so - many thanks!

[Duncan Glenday]

Made another tweak...

[Plasmatopia]

I think that might've done it:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/plasmaguy7/5e2e3018491bff6705718943954fc62c_zps4aebba5a.jpg

[Duncan Glenday]

Not quite - there's still a hidden button.

:(

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[Plasmatopia]

lol!

[sonic]

You also have to figure that on a public forum with a few thousand people, catering to a fairly- dare I say- intellectual and nerdy pursuit like prog
Listening to prog is an intellectual pursuit? :lol

[Sean]

I'd think active music listening is an intellectual pursuit regardless of genre.

[trurl]

Listening to prog is an intellectual pursuit? :lol

I tried to hedge that line very carefully ;)

[Progmatic]

I'd think active music listening is an intellectual pursiut regardless of genre.

now that's the spirit...though if it would be up to me I would exclude C&W :D

[Jerjo]

though if it would be up to me I would exclude C&W

Preachin' to the choir brother!

[Cats On Glue]

you can find an artsy sub-culture within most genres. even C&W believe it or not.

[Steve F.]

you can find an artsy sub-culture within most genres. even C&W believe it or not.

ahem...


One of our releases in 2009:

"The New Jersey-based Independent Music Awards announced last night the winners of the 9th annual IMAs. Among the top winners: All That Remains, Spinnerette, Holly Golightly & the Brokeoffs, The So So Glos, Alaska In Winter, Beat Circus, Gemma Ray, Illa J and State Radio.

More than 50 categories for albums, songs, music videos and design comprised this year's competition, and winners were determined by the votes of a panel of "80 influential artists and industry pros." Those artists and pros included Tom Waits, The Black Keys, Ricky Skaggs, Pete Wentz, Mark Hoppus, Aimee Mann, The Apples in Stereo, David Garrett, Suzanne Vega, Bettye LaVette, Judy Collins, Zooey Deschanel and M. Ward."

ALT. COUNTRY - ALBUM
Artist: Beat Circus
Album: Boy From Black Mountain
Label: Cuneiform

[Cats On Glue]

Nice Steve F! Can't say I've ever had inclination for country music, but i happened to be in a club once where an alt country band was playing and there was more pierced and wildly tatooed young folk in the audience all dressed up 1950s country chic, than you could imagine.

[trurl]

Don't forget there's a thread on country-fied prog (and mostly The Dregs) going on right now...

[Vic2012]

And one thing I despise is bloodsport, people who sit on the sidelines and egg it one because they find things amusing.

I hope I'm not one of those types. I'm not denying that I've ever "egged on" a flame war but I normally don't do that. I usually don't join mobs, or join in ganging up on certain people. Now, recently I made a comment about the "pistachio thread." Couldn't help laughing about that. I'm still cracking up about it. :lol


Regarding Billy Sherwood, and artists in general, I have a completely different perspective. Just because you write music doesn't give you carte blanche to be an ass.

To be honest, I don't even know what sparked it off. All I remember was that he was a member for a few months, then one day he posted an angry post about something or other, and then everyone just ganged up on him, making comments like "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out" or words to that effect. I thought that was inbad taste. Whether he's an ass or not, I don't know or care. He was a member of YES, and I was glad he was here. But whatever, it's water under the bridge. I have to believe that Billy has better things to do than fight with people on PE.

[80s were ok]

yea, I don't know the details of the Billy Sherwood incident. I met him in Lakewood NJ at the YOSO show two years ago or so and he was the nicest guy, most gracious guy you could meet.

[Reginod]

Depending on one's perspective, Sherwood might indeed have been an ass (don't we all have our moments?) but I feel pretty safe in saying that he wasn't an ass in a vacuum.

[moecurlythanu]

Now, recently I made a comment about the "pistachio thread." Couldn't help laughing about that. I'm still cracking up about it. :lol


I missed that, but nothing can equal the sublime heights of the bathtub re-glazing thread. That was the pinnacle of all internet activity, and it's like shall never be seen again.

[progeezer]

The word glazed is apropos quite a bit here in PE land, but applies neither to bathtubs or doughnuts.

[trurl]

he wasn't an ass in a vacuum.

If your ass is in the vacuum you're facing the wrong way.


Wait, what are we talking about?

[Jerjo]

If your ass is in the vacuum you're facing the wrong way.

Yes, we were all teenagers once.

[Shadow]

Didn't Abe Lincoln say something about that?:)

I thought he said "Theater tickets again".

[Trane]

Quote Originally Posted by Vic2012 View Post
Now, recently I made a comment about the "pistachio thread." Couldn't help laughing about that. I'm still cracking up about it. I missed that, but nothing can equal the sublime heights of the bathtub re-glazing thread. That was the pinnacle of all internet activity, and it's like shall never be seen again.


How come we can still find the pistachio thread (closed) and the not the Bathtub thread?? :angry ;)

In both cases, you had to be there at the right time I believe

(I also spoke of the pistachio thread in some anal thread, but maybe not in a bathtub, if memory serves) :oops

[Poisoned Youth]

To be honest, I don't even know what sparked it off. All I remember was that he was a member for a few months, then one day he posted an angry post about something or other, and then everyone just ganged up on him, making comments like "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out" or words to that effect. I thought that was inbad taste. Whether he's an ass or not, I don't know or care. He was a member of YES, and I was glad he was here. But whatever, it's water under the bridge. I have to believe that Billy has better things to do than fight with people on PE.

I hate to rehash this every 6 months, and Billy may be the nicest guy in person - I can't speak to that. All I know is what I witnessed on the sidelines and personally. And anyone who wraps it up like you have simply has it wrong. It wasn't one incident it was many. What caused him to leave was the culmination of that and a boiling point. But you add to my perception of a double standard. It's okay for Billy to act the way he did, but it's the PE regulars that acted 'in bad taste'.

[Vic2012]

I hate to rehash this every 6 months, and Billy may be the nicest guy in person - I can't speak to that. All I know is what I witnessed on the sidelines and personally. And anyone who wraps it up like you have simply has it wrong. It wasn't one incident it was many. What caused him to leave was the culmination of that and a boiling point. But you add to my perception of a double standard. It's okay for Billy to act the way he did, but it's the PE regulars that acted 'in bad taste'.

Okay, I trust you Cozy so I'll take your word. I'm only expressing how I felt at the time. I obviously don't know the whole story (and at this point don't want to know because I don't want you to feel you have to dredge it all up again). As far as everyone reacting in bad taste goes, I expect celebrities to be a little "Diva-ish" and have a chip on their shoulder. I think it's better to let the guy make a fool of himself and then the rest of us just watch him melt down on his own without shouting insults at him as he's leaving. That's just me. It's easy to insult someone when they're not around to defend themselves. Again, that's just how I feel. In the years I've been here I think there are only 2-3 people (musicians or not) that I was happy to see gone. But I never thought of giving them a parting shot on their way out the door. To me that's chickenshit. Again, that's just me.

I get what you mean now by this though:


people who sit on the sidelines and egg it one because they find things amusing.


Guilty as charged (along with a LOT of other guys too). Sometimes I just have to fight the urge to post one of these :lol@whoever. I'll try not to do that anymore, and I'll resist the urge to antagonize JIF too ;).

[80s were ok]

I'll try not to do that anymore, and I'll resist the urge to antagonize JIF too ;).

that might not be possible since he attacks everyone lately for even breathing.

[Poisoned Youth]

Okay, I trust you Cozy so I'll take your word. I'm only expressing how I felt at the time. I obviously don't know the whole story (and at this point don't want to know because I don't want you to feel you have to dredge it all up again).

That's cool. And you're right, there were a few people that indeed acted in poor taste regardless of the situation.

[spacefreak]

I don't really expect a rebirth myself. As a long time poster here, I feel like PE's best days have come and gone. Of course, this is because I came here to discuss music. I feel like some of the truly thought provoking musical discussion has waned.

...For me personally, I miss the contributions of dozens of posters that could communicate musically on a "breadth level" (you know, those featured CDs no one can talk about). They simply aren't around anymore or care to post. The ones that were here got tired of their threads sinking like a stone as the pool of those that could contribute declined and it seemed clear that who remained was less interested in proactively seeking out new music. That has significantly reduced my urge not only to post new threads, but I used to give people recommendations and opinions all the time. Those threads come few and far between these days.

Conclusion: that means that the board has run its course.

Probably yes. Time will show, though...

[notallwhowander]

This board, or that particular social grouping?

The conclusion, I think is a question of whether a new social grouping will coalesce here and bring a similar quality of discussion.

[polmico]

It's funny.

Since my initial replies (which were positive), I've noticed some of the negative things about how this board has evolved that some of y'all cited.

[sonic]

This place is turning into a ghost town. Maybe it's because the prog 'subculture' is dead. ;)

[Scott Bails]

No, Progeezer's alive and well. :)

[progeezer]

No, Progeezer's alive and well. :)Huh? :)

Remember, Dave Sr. (adap2it) is almost 6 years OLDER than me (he's 73 or 74). He's no closer to behaving like an adult than I am.

[Progmatic]

This place is turning into a ghost town.

I would like to think about it as the site is evolving...there are ghosts of the past contributors around (that tend to contribute less than in past or retire altogether) but you have also a new crop of active contributors...

I understand that some people are fed up going over and over the same issues and discussions but this is the beauty of this site...YOU are empowered to make the change...come up with the topics that you find challenging and post the thread...as usually some of them will stick and some will drop like a rock...

[Trane]

I would like to think about it as the site is evolving...there are ghosts of the past contributors around (that tend to contribute less than in past or retire altogether) but you have also a new crop of active contributors...

I understand that some people are fed up going over and over the same issues and discussions but this is the beauty of this site...YOU are empowered to make the change...come up with the topics that you find challenging and post the thread...as usually some of them will stick and some will drop like a rock...


easier said then done.... when the threads you create sick like a rock in the ocean... No wonder I don't start many of them...

[Sean]

That's the spirit! :P

[sonic]

YOU are empowered to make the change...come up with the topics that you find challenging and post the thread...as usually some of them will stick and some will drop like a rock...
And this is why I said it's turning into a ghost town. I have been a big thread starter in the past but the percentage of threads that drop like a rock has just become too great for me to be bothered. And this happened since the change to PE 3. I come to these sites to interact with people, not to get depressed. I guess it had been heading that way before the change, but still the overnight difference in thread response has been quite pronounced.

[Trane]

That's the spirit! :P

Yeah, sorry about that... but I'm still around and posting more than ever.... so it's not all dark

[Duncan Glenday]

This place is turning into a ghost town.

Really.

In just 4 months:

Over 1,600 registered members
Double that number of non-members read the board regularly
An average of 200 registered members on the board at any one time
An average of 450 non-members on the board at any one time
Over 2,400 threads
Over 62,000 posts
84% of the threads are ON-TOPIC, on the music board - and 53% of those are on THE MAIN BOARD - the primary reason for Progressive Ears's existence
Only 6% of the posts are in the Way-Off-Topic forum


When I'm a ghost, I want to live in a town like this one - it will make me feel very alive!

[walt]

I've probably posted as many(or more) threads that died a quick death than anyone on PE.

I like to think that perhaps one or two readers clicked on the thread,heard the YouTube clip i posted,maybe they dug the music but couldn't be bothered posting their approval.

Of course, it would be great if 100 people posted how much they liked the music that i think is great,but mostly i tend to post stuff that's 'off the beaten track',even for PE.

It means alot to me, those few times one person (or two) posts thanks for my posting a clip.I always try to thank people who post interesting clips or threads.Everyone likes to see appreciation expressed for things they bring to the attention of readers.It just ain't gonna happen every time.You get over it, and move on.

[Gruno]

I have a bit of a feeling that since NEARfest isn't around, some will or have grown tired with communicating. I think some here base their 'community' on who they interact with at fests. The change to PE3 and no NEARfest might have sealed the deal for some.... just a thought. Remember, those NEARfest threads went on forever and ever and ever and ever and... while they would post in those, they would also check around and post throughout the board. Not anymore.

ROSfest doesn't seem to have the large appeal as NEARfest, so those threads aren't as active.

It also could be an ebb and flow thing; things will pick up. Might not be with the same posters as before, but maybe new blood is a good thing!

[Trane]

^^^
EDIT: to Duncan's statistic post

not to downplay your optimism, but many of these posts are from the ones that deleted their posts on PE2.0 to be allowed to post more... and just like we suspected at first, the logged-in people figures are quite "iffy" in terms of trust

But yeah, I certainly wouldn't call this placea ghost town.

Good for only 6% of posting in WOT, though!! Does this include the groups??

[Gruno]

Really.
When I'm a ghost, I want to live in a town like this one - it will make me feel very alive!

Classic Duncan right there for ya! :lol :up

[Poisoned Youth]

YOU are empowered to make the change...come up with the topics that you find challenging and post the thread...as usually some of them will stick and some will drop like a rock...
Yes. And for a few years, I was a big contributor to new content on the site. After a while, the stuff *I* wanted to talk about was not getting much traction. That does become a bit stale after a while. It does take some effort to keep that going and it's much more encouraging when you get fruitful results.

But I think Walt touched on another issue though which is that his tastes tend to be rather 'fringe' in relation to your average PEer. His threads tend to sink because most people here haven't heard the music he wants to discuss. I can relate. Though I consider my own personal taste on the broader side, there's lots and lots of albums I don't even bother featuring here because time and time again they get almost zero response. Such is life I suppose.

[Duncan Glenday]

... and just like we suspected at first, the logged-in people figures are quite "iffy" in terms of trust


No - that WAS true in the beginning, then we discovered a bug in the count system. That bug has been fixed, and the counts are reliable. I have conducted spot-checks, and have found no errors.



Good for only 6% of posting in WOT, though!! Does this include the groups??

No - I didn't include groups in my counts.

[Duncan Glenday]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z201/dglenday/ActivityStats-4Months_zps0497ad04.png

[progeezer]

"Meet the new guard, not the same as the old guard";).