The Yardbirds

[davis]

I was going to collect individual Yardbirds CDs but can't find For Your Love for a price I'm willing to pay. There's a 4-disc set called Yardbirds Story. Is that all music or is there narration?

[JJ88]

Love them. Unfortunately like The Small Faces, this is a brilliant and important group whose legacy has been lessened by the amount of below-par releases out there. There are three releases needed to cover the basic ground.

1- 'The Yardbirds Story' covers *every* released recording they did for Giorgio Gomelsky. That features everything they recorded with Eric Clapton, most of the Jeff Beck stuff (including a 4th disc of demos and runthroughs) and the stray Beck/Page track 'Stroll On'. This is all you need of that period. No narration, just music.

2- This box does not include everything they did, however- not by a long chalk. It doesn't have the album 'The Yardbirds' aka 'Roger The Engineer'. Get a version of that with the mono and stereo mixes, plus the single 'Happenings Ten Years Time Ago'/'Psycho Daisies'. Quite a few are available.

3- There's also another album 'Little Games' with Jimmy Page, and this is a murkier area- this album wasn't even released in Britain at the time! I've only ever had the Sundazed mono version...unfortunately whilst some bonus tracks were included, some were left off leaving this era incomplete. Those songs are on other releases but it would have been nice to have them all there.

There is a now deleted Rhino set called 'Ultimate' which chose from the whole career. This one looks perfect on paper. However I forgot how 'bright' and trebly this one sounds until the last time I played it, and it left off 'Glimpses' which is brilliant. There's also various live/radio session releases...never delved into those.

[mogrooves]

You'll still need Roger The Engineer and Little Games

[davis]

thanks for the direction... :)

[Watanabe]

yardbirds story box also has some of the best sound of any yardbirds release i've heard.

[JJ88]

I did some reading about this on other forums like Steve Hoffman's, and the man who compiled that box prioritised the mono mixes where previous releases had often used fake-stereo garbage and the like.

For many years I only had 'Ultimate!'.

[Watanabe]

What's the consensus on the page era?

I've not listened to any of it for an age and barely remember it in detail, other than finding it at the time to be pretty weak psych pop?.Maybe time for a re-listen.

[JJ88]

It's not the best period of the band, by then they'd started working with Mickie Most who had a more bubblegum outlook and it's hard to imagine a band less suited to that. 'White Summer', 'Glimpses', 'Drinking Muddy Water' and 'Think About It' hold up best from that period, not much else does. The first of those and also 'Dazed And Confused'. which they did live, were important for Jimmy Page obviously.

[davis]

On video I've seen the JP version of the Yardbirds play 'Dazed and Confused'. It seemed really heavy and bluesy for that time. otherworldly even. Was this before or after the first Hendrix album?

[mogrooves]

Was this before or after the first Hendrix album?

The latter.

[davis]

^ okay. I thought maybe the first Hendrix album might've influenced it. I did some research and learned that 'Dazed and Confused' was originally a folk song by a guy called Jake Holmes. He opened for the Yardbirds. Page heard the song and basically grabbed it and made it his own. The result is great, but shame on him for not crediting Holmes.

[ronmac]

shame on him for not crediting Holmes.

Well, that's part of Page's legacy. Not sure he has any shame about it.

[davis]

well, I ani't gonna dwell on it. just an FYI: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/jun/30/led-zeppelin-sued-dazed-and-confused

The booklet that comes with The Yardbirds Story box, what's in that besides photos?

[strawberrybrick]

You'll still need Roger The Engineer and Little Games

Absolutely. Also, there's a great album, Yardbirds Live, which I think Page had withdrawn or something. You can find it online...

[JJ88]

The booklet is full of information about the band and recordings.

I dug out 'Ultimate' and that one just sounds too loud and too shrill. A shame because it seems to me some of the source material used was an improvement, just the mastering lets it down. 'Got To Hurry' sounds very odd on it, though. That particular track, I prefer the alternate take where Clapton uses the distortion...the 'Yardbirds Story' has both.

'Live Yardbirds' has been caught up in litigation for years, since its release in fact. There was another one that got hastily withdrawn featuring Page called 'Cumular Limit'.

[Mythos]

I was lucky enough to buy Yardbirds Live (new) back in the mid-70's, I always liked it even though the critics railed it...!

[mogrooves]

I was lucky enough to buy Yardbirds Live (new) back in the mid-70's, I always liked it even though the critics railed it...!

I have it as well. I saw this band in '66.

[Rand Kelly]

Does anyone have a comment on an a live album called,Golden Eggs(Jimmy Page on guitar)?

[JJ88]

^I read about that one recently...seems to be a compilation bootleg rather than a live release. Looks all over the place to me. But their discography never made much sense. The 'Little Games' album was never even released in Britain in the 60s. I don't know if the studio versions of 'Train Kept A Rollin' and 'I'm A Man' were released here at the time either, and those became iconic tracks in the US!

[Adm.Kirk]

The Yardbirds BBC album is worthy as well! There is also a Clapton-era live album that was released on Get Back several years ago that is quite excellent.

Bill

[Watanabe]

This thread inspired me to go back through and listen to the stuff i have(clapton, beck era) and while an enjoyable band i'm reminded of how stiff and embryonic a blues rock\beat band they were.Good guitar work of course, but the rest of the band aren't really up to it.Especially Relf, who sounds like an accountant.

I dig most of the more psych styled work, but they were by no means one of the better blues rock\R&B bands from the 60s.Listening to the butterfield blues band and Graham bond organization after them really hammered home the difference in quality for me.

[davis]

I'm impressed with Relf's harp playing.

[Vic2012]

My older brother had this album in his collection way back when:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Havingaraveup.jpg

I was just a kid and I remember being blown away by the guitar solo on "Your A Better Man Than I."


Well, that's part of Page's legacy. Not sure he has any shame about it

It's unfortunate that this is part of his legacy but I think he's one of the most influential guitarists ever. He gets ripped a lot here on PE but whatever. The guy really was a musical genius in the studio. I've always loved his guitar playing and I'd take him over the other British guitar gods.

[davis]

It's unfortunate that this is part of his legacy but I think he's one of the most influential guitarists ever. He gets ripped a lot here on PE but whatever. The guy really was a musical genius in the studio. I've always loved his guitar playing and I'd take him over the other British guitar gods.

I agree. I'm not a huge Zep fan, but I am a fan. No one person can be 'the Best" guitarist in the world, but Page's guitarist-IQ is off the charts. So is Jeff Beck's.

[Scrotum Scissor]

What's the consensus on the page era?

I've not listened to any of it for an age and barely remember it in detail, other than finding it at the time to be pretty weak psych pop?.Maybe time for a re-listen.

Get Little Games, a comp from 1985 (on RAK Records, I believe) covering their 1967 productions, demos and outtakes. I'd hardly call stuff like "Glimpses" anything near 'weak psych pop' - those are some over-the-top, syrip-heavy acid rock fanfares.

[JJ88]

^But the majority of the Page era is very poppy, largely due to them being (mis)handled by Mickie Most. 'Glimpses', 'Drinking Muddy Water' and 'White Summer' are the only things on that album really worthy of The Yardbirds' name. The rest is all over the place. Things like the title track are more suited to Most's biggest act Herman's Hermits.

Funnily enough in the same era, Jeff Beck had the same issues with Mickie Most. The singles like 'Hi Ho Silver Lining' and 'Tallyman' are so far apart from the stuff Beck was doing on albums like 'Truth', it's not even funny. Mickie Most had a talent within pop music, but with these heavier groups, not so much.

[Scrotum Scissor]

^But the majority of the Page era is very poppy, largely due to them being (mis)handled by Mickie Most. 'Glimpses', 'Drinking Muddy Water' and 'White Summer' are the only things on that album really worthy of The Yardbirds' name. The rest is all over the place. Things like the title track are more suited to Most's biggest act Herman's Hermits.

I suppose you're right about that, but the good material weighs the bad stuff out IMO. However, if you listen to recordings like the Top Gear rendition of "Think About It" or "Goodnight Sweet Josephine", you'll hear what sincere commitment lay underneath. Too bad these versions never found their way to an album, though.

[Vic2012]

So is Jeff Beck's

Honestly, I've never been a big fan of Jeff Beck. I've owned "Wired", "Blow By Blow", and "There And Back" but now I only have "Blow By Blow" on CD. Great stuff, but I'll take Led Zeppelin over Jeff a thousand times. I just don't find him as awesome as everyone else thinks. I'll take Carlos Santana, Alan Holdsworth, and John McLaughlin over Jeff any day.

[Watanabe]

I since checked most of the studio Page stuff out.Glimpses and Think about it are indeed good tracks, but the rest was as bad as i remembered it.Most's stench was all over this.

[Watanabe]

Honestly, I've never been a big fan of Jeff Beck. I've owned "Wired", "Blow By Blow", and "There And Back" but now I only have "Blow By Blow" on CD. Great stuff, but I'll take Led Zeppelin over Jeff a thousand times. I just don't find him as awesome as everyone else thinks. I'll take Carlos Santana, Alan Holdsworth, and John McLaughlin over Jeff any day.

His best work was with the two versions of the Jeff Beck Group imo.Check those out if you haven't already.

I can take or leave his fusion stuff.Blow by Blow is an entertaining album for the great drumming and soloing from Beck and Middleton, but the pieces themselves are mostly weak with some extremely cheesy main themes.Wired, again entertaining enough with some great playing from Bascomb, Beck etc, but compositionally a lot of it is very middle of the road safe stuff(mainly Walden's contributions) in terms of what i look for in fusion.the live album he did with Jan Hammer around that time is brutally bad though...Beck plays uncharacteristically stiff and Hammer just steamrolls over him whenever the two have solos in the same track or trade lines.

[mogrooves]

Think About It

How this was omitted is beyond me. Page storms on it.

[JJ88]

Yes, 'Think About It' was a B-side. That's why I didn't mention that as being among the 'saving graces' of the album. I think it's a shame Sundazed didn't add that one in particular to their otherwise well done CD of the mono mix...one of the other B-sides that was included, 'I Remember The Night', is probably the worst ever Yardbirds record (those Italian songs from the mid 60s are the other contenders!).

'Glimpses' follows on from things like 'Still I'm Sad' and 'Turn Into Earth', with those monastic vocals!

Vic, it's definitely worth trying out the first two Jeff Beck albums with Rod Stewart on vocals, 'Truth' and 'Beck Ola'. These are generally in a heavier rock vein, one of the earlier groups to really explore that sort of sound. I always loved the slow blues B-side 'I've Been Drinking', though the original mix of that is one of the strangest I've ever heard- there's like a dummy vocal from Rod Stewart audible beneath the lead vocal!

[Vic2012]

I had "Truth." It did nothing for me. Got rid of it.

[davis]

Honestly, I've never been a big fan of Jeff Beck. I've owned "Wired", "Blow By Blow", and "There And Back" but now I only have "Blow By Blow" on CD. Great stuff, but I'll take Led Zeppelin over Jeff a thousand times. I just don't find him as awesome as everyone else thinks. I'll take Carlos Santana, Alan Holdsworth, and John McLaughlin over Jeff any day.

to each their own :) I know it's considered, like, blasphemous but 'Wired' & 'Blow By Blow' don't do much for me, but various other JB records do. That said, I was never interested in him until last year.

[Scrotum Scissor]

How this was omitted is beyond me. Page storms on it.

You should hear the version they did for Top Gear. Much rawer and heavier. I had my own band back in '92 do a (show-opening) cover of this one, and it was a (erh...) "hit" with local audiences.

[mogrooves]

I know it's considered, like, blasphemous but 'Wired' & 'Blow By Blow' don't do much for me, but various other JB records do.

+1. Truth, Beck-Ola, and Rough and Ready for me.

[davis]

^ yep, and I like 'There and Back', 'Who Else!' and 'Guitar Shop'.

[JJ88]

I've been hearing rumours about the Anderson Theater show getting a proper release for a while but it does appear something really is happening now. Also looks like studio material will be included (maybe including what was on the withdrawn Cumular Limit album):

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/yardbirds-possible-release-of-anderson-theatre-new-york-68-tape-in-2017.628016/

[Adm.Kirk]

Something else to push the eternally rumored Page solo album back another year. I have the vinyl for years but to have Page go back and remix this properly along with the Cumular Limit material would be wonderful.

Bill

[JJ88]

^I can't believe anyone really believes he'll ever put anything new out, at this stage in the game. There's been nothing new since, what, Walking Into Clarksdale...nearly 20 years ago. But it doesn't really matter, he's done so much great work already, and I'm also happy for him to carry on with this archive digging.

I listen to Cumular Limit quite regularly, 'Avron Knows' has a killer riff. A bit of a shame they ended up with Mickie Most whilst Page was in the band. He was also giving Jeff Beck material like 'Hi Ho Silver Lining' in the same era.:roll

[Enid]

I don't remember how high "Over, Under, Sideways, Down charted..as a single...but I think it's a pretty unusual dark kind of Psychedelic song with odd and short note patterns based off an Asia type note pattern...probably India..and several of these attempts began when Jeff Beck joined. Prior to that the music seemed more straight up Blues with Clapton....additionally up tempo Blues rockers like "Too Much Monkey Business" were reminiscent of The Rolling Stones going off to play "Carol". I would like to have a concert of the band with Jimmy Page. I like the Anderson Theater '68 but a shame it couldn't be more cleaned up in production. I love Jeff Beck's emulation of Les Paul on "Beck's Boogie". That's completely genuine. When Clapton joined Mayall- he had this burning tone where the notes he played could drive right though you. Not many guitarists had that perfect tone in Rock music prior to the release of Mayall's debute. When Clapton plays on Sonny Boy Williamson/Yardbirds Crawdaddy Club...he has a clean tone and somewhat more reserved and sophisticated approach to his playing. The whole entire Yardbirds history is fascinating because of Clapton, Beck, and Page experimenting with the sound of the guitar and creating a new foundation for its identity in Rock. All 3 of them had something unique to offer ...I mean we all knew that Dave Davies brought distorted guitar to the music scene in '64 ...but Clapton, Beck, and Page influenced several bands to follow in their footsteps by taking the lead guitar solo in a Rock song...a bit more seriously.

[GuitarGeek]

I don't remember how high "Over, Under, Sideways, Down charted..as a single...but I think it's a pretty unusual dark kind of Psychedelic song with odd and short note patterns based off an Asia type note pattern...probably India..and several of these attempts began when Jeff Beck joined. Prior to that the music seemed more straight up Blues with Clapton....additionally up tempo Blues rockers like "Too Much Monkey Business" were reminiscent of The Rolling Stones going off to play "Carol".

Apparently, Clapton was the one and only true blues devotee in The Yardbirds. The rest of them were just art school drop outs who managed to get in on the ground floor of the British blues trend. Eric quit when it became apparent the rest of the band was willing to make more mainstream music in a bid for chart success.

There's a couple different Beck era songs that have that Eastern vibe to it. The story I always heard was that they tried to record Heart Full Of A Soul with a sitar player. The sitar player couldn't hack playing the 4/4 rock and roll beat they wanted. So after multiple takes, Beck finally says "Is this what you want?" and whips out the song's signature riff immediately. I read once there was some kind of retrospective that came out in the 80's that had an alternate version with the sitar on it, but I've never heard it.

And then there's other songs where Beck is experimenting with feedback and such, all this before Hendrix (though maybe not before Townshend).


When Clapton joined Mayall- he had this burning tone where the notes he played could drive right though you. Not many guitarists had that perfect tone in Rock music prior to the release of Mayall's debute. When Clapton plays on Sonny Boy Williamson/Yardbirds Crawdaddy Club...he has a clean tone and somewhat more reserved and sophisticated approach to his playing.

I'm not sure what amps Eric used with the Yardbirds, but with Mayall, I believe he used a Les Paul into a Marshall combo amp. I think he said once it was the best Les Paul he ever owned, but it got stolen while Cream were rehearsing for their live debut.


I mean we all knew that Dave Davies brought distorted guitar to the music scene in '64

Maybe to the British music scene, but distorted guitar had been around Stateside for most of the 50's. There's lots of examples of distorted guitar tones going all the way back to Willie Kizart on Ike Turner's Rocket 88 back in 1951 (where the distortion was produced by the damaged speaker cone in the amp). There were lots of blues guitarists who got their sound by cranking up their amp, or by plugging humbucker equipped guitars into Fender amps (which were designed to work with lower output single coil pickups, the higher output humbuckers made it easier to get overdrive). Paul Burlison got his tone on Johnny Burnette's version of Train Kept A-Rollin' by pulling a tube half way out the socket in his amp. Link Wray got his ferocious Rumble tone by slashing holes in the speaker cone (much like Dave Davies would later do).

[Enid]

Apparently, Clapton was the one and only true blues devotee in The Yardbirds. The rest of them were just art school drop outs who managed to get in on the ground floor of the British blues trend. Eric quit when it became apparent the rest of the band was willing to make more mainstream music in a bid for chart success.

There's a couple different Beck era songs that have that Eastern vibe to it. The story I always heard was that they tried to record Heart Full Of A Soul with a sitar player. The sitar player couldn't hack playing the 4/4 rock and roll beat they wanted. So after multiple takes, Beck finally says "Is this what you want?" and whips out the song's signature riff immediately. I read once there was some kind of retrospective that came out in the 80's that had an alternate version with the sitar on it, but I've never heard it.

And then there's other songs where Beck is experimenting with feedback and such, all this before Hendrix (though maybe not before Townshend).



I'm not sure what amps Eric used with the Yardbirds, but with Mayall, I believe he used a Les Paul into a Marshall combo amp. I think he said once it was the best Les Paul he ever owned, but it got stolen while Cream were rehearsing for their live debut.


Maybe to the British music scene, but distorted guitar had been around Stateside for most of the 80's. There's lots of examples of distorted guitar tones going all the way back to Willie Kizart on Ike Turner's Rocket 88 back in 1951 (where the distortion was produced by the damaged speaker cone in the amp). There were lots of blues guitarists who got their sound by cranking up their amp, or by plugging humbucker equipped guitars into Fender amps (which were designed to work with lower output single coil pickups, the higher output humbuckers made it easier to get overdrive). Paul Burlison got his tone on Johnny Burnette's version of Train Kept A-Rollin' by pulling a tube half way out the socket in his amp. Link Wray got his ferocious Rumble tone by slashing holes in the speaker cone (much like Dave Davies would later do).

I believe it. I had thoughts about the distortion idea existing before Davies and never researched it. Thanks for that info! That's really interesting

[Enid]

I have a bunch of recordings by Sonny Boy Williamson with Jimmy Page and it's quite unusual to hear him play the electric guitar so clean. There's some sort of official British compilation.. available but the one I have is more extensive. Page was a session man for years which reminds me of Duane Allman when he did N.Y. sessions for famous artists years prior to the Allman Brothers recording their debut album. Sometimes with Led Zeppelin he would sound sloppy as if he was banging open strings he wasn't suppose to during a fast note pattern. I heard him play when I was a boy in the 60's. He sounded technical to me and certain solos were not sloppy in the least. I used to think maybe he was drinking whiskey when he played sloppy. Then one day I saw the dragon pants with the guitar being held below his knees. I first thought it couldn't be possible to hold the guitar that far away from your wrist motion of the right picking hand without making a mistake. And especially for what Page wrote so it is possible that holding his guitar that low can be attributed to his mistakes. On another note...Jimmy Page's acoustic playing is impeccable.


Jeff Beck was very clean...always clean and challenged himself in writing at one point...where upon years later he hardly wrote at all. He wrote some of the greatest songs on the planet . "Situation", I've Been Used", ....I think he helped write "Jody" and then he stopped writing completely ..and worked with others who wrote for him or he added ideas to their instrumentals....where as before..he wrote songs that were very appealing and very unique. He could have been a great songwriter. For some reason he chose not to be....however he has the ability to write fine songs with astonishing melancholy melodies and striking instrumental breaks.....and beautiful chord changes that sometimes sound dissonant.

[GuitarGeek]

Page was a session man for years which reminds me of Duane Allman when he did N.Y. sessions for famous artists years prior to the Allman Brothers recording their debut album.

Actually, Duane did sessions in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, where a lot of R&B and soul records were made in the late 60's. He played on records by Aretha Franklin, Wilson Pickett, and Herbie Mann, amongst others. If I remember correctly, Rick Hall, who owned FAME Studios in Muscle Shoals, was impressed with a session The Hour Glass (the band that Duane and Gregg were in at the time) had done there and basically bought out Duane's share of the Hour Glass contract so that he could hire Duane full time to do sessions for him.

As for Page, he played on a lot of records in the mid 60's. He played on records by Donovan, Marianne Faithful, Dave Berry, Petula Clark. And as Tommy Tedesco and Glen Campbell deputized for the guitarists in many bands who recorded in LA in the mid and late 60's, Page also depped for Ray Davies on some of the early Kinks recordings (notably, that's Page playing the riffs on You Really Got Me and All Day And All Of The Night), and The Who (he's on I Can't Explain). There seems to be some dispute as to which songs by Them that Page played on, and exactly what he played on some of the songs.


Sometimes with Led Zeppelin he would sound sloppy as if he was banging open strings he wasn't suppose to during a fast note pattern.

For me it wasn't that so much as just what sometimes seemed like sloppy right hand/left hand technique, liking picking a note that his left hand has quite fretted correctly. He sometimes sounded like he needed some serious woodshedding to play some of those fast runs.

But most of the time, he made it work. But the thing was, he was a full blown heroin addict, and there was some shows where it's obvious he was too messed up to play coherently. Either he had done too much dope (or the wrong kind or whatever) or his stash ran out and he was playing cold turkey whilst experiencing withdrawal symptoms. QUite likely, it was either one on different occasions. The thing was, you'd have some shows where he'd sound great, then like a couple weeks later, he'd sound terrible. You need only listen to the bootlegs from the 77 tour to hear that.


I heard him play when I was a boy in the 60's. He sounded technical to me and certain solos were not sloppy in the least. I used to think maybe he was drinking whiskey when he played sloppy. Then one day I saw the dragon pants with the guitar being held below his knees. I first thought it couldn't be possible to hold the guitar that far away from your wrist motion of the right picking hand without making a mistake. And especially for what Page wrote so it is possible that holding his guitar that low can be attributed to his mistakes.

There's a whole generation of guitarists with serious wrist and back problems, which Page and Townshend have to answer for. Everyone was emulating the two of them (of course, Page had his guitar slung way lower than Townshend, but you have to have the guitar slung slightly lower than advisable to do the Townshend style windmills, which naturally every geek wanted to do).


On another note...Jimmy Page's acoustic playing is impeccable.

No argument there. I'm not sure I've heard him play badly on acoustic guitar (then again, I abandoned that video of the Seattle show from 77 before they got to the acoustic set, so he may have played just badly during that part of the show as he did during the electric portions).



Jeff Beck was very clean...always clean and challenged himself in writing at one point...where upon years later he hardly wrote at all. He wrote some of the greatest songs on the planet . "Situation", I've Been Used", ....I think he helped write "Jody" and then he stopped writing completely ..and worked with others who wrote for him or he added ideas to their instrumentals....where as before..he wrote songs that were very appealing and very unique. He could have been a great songwriter. For some reason he chose not to be....however he has the ability to write fine songs with astonishing melancholy melodies and striking instrumental breaks.....and beautiful chord changes that sometimes sound dissonant.

I'm not that familiar with Beck's early career, but I know what you mean about him not writing later on. You have to figure this is a guy who can pull all kinds of crazy cool melodies and riffs out every time he picks up a guitar, but at least on the post-Jeff Beck Group records (ie Blow By Blow onwards), he seemed to be content to let the other musicians playing in his bands bring the actual written material. I think the Guitar Shop album might be just about the only where he's consistently credited with writing stuff (which I suspect might be the result of him, Hymas and Bozzio working the material out in rehearsal sessions, just jamming up the tunes).

But having said, Beck has a supreme ability to wring maximum emotion from a beautiful melody like nobody else. I mean, just listen to Cause We've Ended As Lovers. Likewise on Where Were You, Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, The Final Peace, etc. A couple of the times I saw him live he did a beautiful rendition of A Day In The Life, playing all the vocal melodies on guitar. Just sounded amazing! What he can do when interpreting whatever is presented to him more than makes up for his name not appearing in the bylines on his own records.

[Enid]

Are you certain Duane Allman didn't record in N.Y.? I could be confusing him with another artist. But I thought I read somewhere that he traveled north and worked with other musicians. I'll have to research that. Mike Bloomfield was a very original guitarist and on "Albert's Shuffle" he comes across with a strange approach to Blues. He obviously played some standard Blues licks ...but he had this really unusual way of expressing it differently...just as Clapton, Beck, and Page had developed a new sound , Bloomfield was pretty much on that game in the U.S. when the Yardbirds were circulating. In the late 60's Eric Clapton became an obsession for young guitarists in the U.S. Was it the guitar amp or how he played? Right...just because you pick up a Les Paul doesn't mean you're going to sound like Eric Clapton. So it couldn't be the guitar either. In point a huge sum of American kids were trying to play like Clapton and worry about his sound later. Page and Beck too...they were also innovators. That scene was so magical . I also admired Paul Kossoff, Peter Haycock, Alvin Lee, Mick Taylor, and Peter Green. But the Yardbirds were more in sync with The Animals and The Rolling Stones...where British Invasion competitor bands like DC5 and Herman's Hermits were more about the Pop side. It was an interesting time

[GuitarGeek]

[QUOTE]Are you certain Duane Allman didn't record in N.Y.? I could be confusing him with another artist. But I thought I read somewhere that he traveled north and worked with other musicians.

Gregg and Duane's first band was called The Allman Joys, which evolved into The Hour Glass. The Hour Glass eventually relocated to Los Angeles after getting a deal with Liberty Records. Liberty assigned them a producer who pretty much hijacked the band's two albums, forcing them to do a truckload of songs by outside songwriters. In particular, the first album had a song by a then unknown Jackson Browne (actually a pretty decent tune), as well as a couple Garry Goffin/Carole King compositions, and a Del Shannon song, too.

The first album has only one song written by Gregg, the second had several more, but they were still forced to work with the same producer (Dallas Smith, known for his work with Bobby Vee, if that tells you anything) as on the first record, who still made decisions the band didn't like. Both records flopped (largely due to the record company not letting them tour outside of California).

After making the second album, the band went to Muscle Shoals to record a demo of blues oriented music that was closer to what they were playing live. Liberty rejected that, so the band broke up. Gregg and Duane went to Jacksonville, Florida (soon to be the home of Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Outlaws, and .38 Special) to hang out and record with a band called The 31st Of February, which included future Allman Brothers Band drummer Butch Trucks. Then Liberty threatened to sue the band if they didn't fulfill their contractual obligations, so Gregg went back to LA to record one more album (which went unreleased for decades), while Duane and the other guys in the band went to work at FAME studios for the time being.

Eventually, Duane was made an offer by Jerry Wexler at Atlantic Records, so Duane formed what was supposed to be a power trio. But then through various jam sessions ended up with a six piece band which initially included a keyboardist named Reese Wynans (who had been in The Second Coming with Dickie Betts and Berry Oakley, and would later play with both Captain Beyond and Stevie Ray Vaughan And Double Trouble). The story Butch Trucks once told was, after this one jam session, Duane went to the door and said "Anyone who doesn't want to be in my band gonna have to fight his way out". Apparently, Reese put up a fight, because Duane then called Gregg, who had just about wrapped up his obligations in LA, and had him come down to Macon, Georgia where they were rehearsing, and thus began The Allman Brothers Band.




I'll have to research that. Mike Bloomfield was a very original guitarist and on "Albert's Shuffle" he comes across with a strange approach to Blues. He obviously played some standard Blues licks ...but he had this really unusual way of expressing it differently...just as Clapton, Beck, and Page had developed a new sound , Bloomfield was pretty much on that game in the U.S. when the Yardbirds were circulating. In the late 60's Eric Clapton became an obsession for young guitarists in the U.S. Was it the guitar amp or how he played? Right...just because you pick up a Les Paul doesn't mean you're going to sound like Eric Clapton. So it couldn't be the guitar either. In point a huge sum of American kids were trying to play like Clapton and worry about his sound later. Page and Beck too...they were also innovators. That scene was so magical . I also admired Paul Kossoff, Peter Haycock, Alvin Lee, Mick Taylor, and Peter Green.

Lots of great players you name there. A particular guitar or amp or pedal will contribute to the tone a given guitarist has, but as you point out, no gear is gonna give you that guitarist's mind, hands, personality or heart. What made those guys (and ltos of others) sound the way they did had a lot to do with it being that one guy.



But the Yardbirds were more in sync with The Animals and The Rolling Stones...where British Invasion competitor bands like DC5 and Herman's Hermits were more about the Pop side.

I think The Yardbirds were an interesting mix of the two sides. They were bluesy, but I think that was largely the result of that being what was trendy at the time. And they certainly had the pop side covered with songs like For Your Love and You're A Better Man Than I.

I'm not sure about The Animals, but I would definitely say the Stones were a bit more authentic with their blues. You get the feeling that Keith Richards, at least, was a genuine dyed in the wool blues fan the way Clapton was, and that was what he wanted to do. And since Keith was one of the main songwriters in the band, he mostly got his way (except for that ill conceived idea to go psychedelic with Satanic Majesties, and Mick's later insistence on experimenting with "dance" music styles on songs like Miss You and Undercover Of The Night).

[Adm.Kirk]

^I can't believe anyone really believes he'll ever put anything new out, at this stage in the game. There's been nothing new since, what, Walking Into Clarksdale...nearly 20 years ago. But it doesn't really matter, he's done so much great work already, and I'm also happy for him to carry on with this archive digging.

I listen to Cumular Limit quite regularly, 'Avron Knows' has a killer riff. A bit of a shame they ended up with Mickie Most whilst Page was in the band. He was also giving Jeff Beck material like 'Hi Ho Silver Lining' in the same era.:roll

I don't think we'll see one either, but he keeps saying he's got this and that and blah blah blah. I'd love to see it happen but I'm not holding my breath. He uses the reissues as reasons for not getting around to a new album. But, yeah, I doubt it will ever see the light of day at this point.

Bill

[Adm.Kirk]

But most of the time, he made it work. But the thing was, he was a full blown heroin addict, and there was some shows where it's obvious he was too messed up to play coherently. Either he had done too much dope (or the wrong kind or whatever) or his stash ran out and he was playing cold turkey whilst experiencing withdrawal symptoms. QUite likely, it was either one on different occasions. The thing was, you'd have some shows where he'd sound great, then like a couple weeks later, he'd sound terrible. You need only listen to the bootlegs from the 77 tour to hear that.

Very true. Seattle is a tough listen. Then there is Cleveland show from the same tour and it's great. In addition to the drugs, there was a lot of improvisation with Zeppelin. No song sounded quite the same from night to night. They took chances on stage and that, combined with the drug issues, could and did make for some sloppy nights.

Bill

[Adm.Kirk]

I would definitely say the Stones were a bit more authentic with their blues. You get the feeling that Keith Richards, at least, was a genuine dyed in the wool blues fan the way Clapton was, and that was what he wanted to do. And since Keith was one of the main songwriters in the band, he mostly got his way (except for that ill conceived idea to go psychedelic with Satanic Majesties, and Mick's later insistence on experimenting with "dance" music styles on songs like Miss You and Undercover Of The Night).

To go along with that, I'd say that Blue & Lonesome shows really how authentic the Stones play the blues. A fantastic album.

Bill

[Jerjo]

That Page solo on "Think About It" from the Top Gear is pretty wicked.

Listening to Beck right now. The original "Beck's Bolero" is such a great guitar workout. For me, Jeff Beck after the Yardbirds is kinda hit and miss. The Truth and Beckola albums hold up well, but you have to pick and choose pretty carefully after that. I think that's why the Ronny Scott show is so popular is that it is Beck at his best, playing his best material. When the man is on fire, there are very few that can match him. That "Day in the Life" cover is just spine-tingling.

Page in '77: heroin is a helluva drug. I've heard a lot of boots from that tour and overall, I prefer the early years. It was a mess of a tour. The set list was rigged to get Plant as much time off his ankle as possible so the three solo sections were always bloated, always momentum killers. I saw them at the old Met Center in Bloomington MN on that tour, my only Zep show. Fortunately they were the beasts that night, mostly because Page was still recovering from this "stomach issue" that cancelled a show in Chicago. I remember him kicking off his solo section by walking the length of the stage just playing lightning runs up and down the neck. Guy next to me said, "that's it, I'm never playing guitar again." And then you hear other boots from that tour and he's just barely holding it together. '73 and the earlier tours are much much better.

I'm convinced that Page is done. We'll never see that solo LP and I don't think he'll be doing anymore live Zep releases. He's just content making appearances at talk shows and doing interviews about the old days. There are rumors that his hands are crippled up, similar to what Clapton is going through. Keith Richards' playing since he fell on his head is pretty mediocre as well. Townsend's back is shot. Let's face it, the guitar heroes are getting old.

[GuitarGeek]

That Page solo on "Think About It" from the Top Gear is pretty wicked.


[QUOTE]Page in '77: heroin is a helluva drug. I've heard a lot of boots from that tour and overall, I prefer the early years. It was a mess of a tour. The set list was rigged to get Plant as much time off his ankle as possible so the three solo sections were always bloated, always momentum killers. I saw them at the old Met Center in Bloomington MN on that tour, my only Zep show. Fortunately they were the beasts that night, mostly because Page was still recovering from this "stomach issue" that cancelled a show in Chicago. I remember him kicking off his solo section by walking the length of the stage just playing lightning runs up and down the neck. Guy next to me said, "that's it, I'm never playing guitar again." And then you hear other boots from that tour and he's just barely holding it together. '73 and the earlier tours are much much better.

Like I said, some nights in 77, he was fantastic, other nights, he sounded like he could barely play. I still think the show on the Listen To This Eddie bootleg is fantastic. That's got a killer version of No Quarter that goes on for nearly a half hour, with both Page and Jonesy playing at the height of their powers. There's a few other shows I've heard that were awesome too. I know some people say the Richfield Coliseum show on the Destroyer bootleg isn't that good, but I actually rather like that one.

But then, as has been said, things like the Seattle show, which circulates on video. I remember wondering why they didn't use anything from Seattle on the Led Zeppelin DVD that came out back around 2002 or 2003, whenever it was. That was before I actually saw the video. When I did, I realized how bad Page sounded, making it obvious why he didn't use anything from that show on the official release.


I'm convinced that Page is done. We'll never see that solo LP and I don't think he'll be doing anymore live Zep releases. He's just content making appearances at talk shows and doing interviews about the old days. There are rumors that his hands are crippled up, similar to what Clapton is going through. Keith Richards' playing since he fell on his head is pretty mediocre as well. Townsend's back is shot. Let's face it, the guitar heroes are getting old.

Yeha, that's what happens when you let wannabe documentary filmmaker talk you into leaping across the stage, as he does at the end of Won't Get Fooled Again on the Kids Are Alright film. And I believe you can see him do it in the Kilburn footage too, so it's clear Jeff Stein was egging him on so he could get the "perfect shot of Pete Townshend defying gravity" (which he then complained he never got, because the lighting guy at the Shepperton performance missed his cue when, though everyone else on the planet thinks that slow motion shot is one of the definitive "showmanship" things captured on film).

I haven't heard any recent Stones, so I don't know what Keith is playing like these days. But as you say, these guys are getting old. I mean, Malcolm Young had to leave AC/DC because he's experiencing dementia, and he's, I think, a little bit younger than Clapton, Page, Townshend, etc. Neil Peart and Phil Collins both apparently are no longer able to play drums. And those guys are a bit younger than Keith, Townshend, Page, Clapton, etc. I know there was some concern about Keith Emerson's playing ability before he died. As you say, these guys are getting older, and it's getting to the point where, even if they're still alive, they might not able to still pull it off the way they used to.

And given some of the bad habits some of those guys have had, we should be thankful they've made it this far. I recall reading that back in the early 80's, Townshend actually had a heart attack, the only thing saving him was a nurse who tore his shirt off and literally thumped on the chest until his heart started beating correctly. And there was Paul Kantner's stroke, the fact that he continued to play and make music for another 30 years after that is just mind boggling.

[Enid]

[QUOTE=Enid;645966]

Gregg and Duane's first band was called The Allman Joys, which evolved into The Hour Glass. The Hour Glass eventually relocated to Los Angeles after getting a deal with Liberty Records. Liberty assigned them a producer who pretty much hijacked the band's two albums, forcing them to do a truckload of songs by outside songwriters. In particular, the first album had a song by a then unknown Jackson Browne (actually a pretty decent tune), as well as a couple Garry Goffin/Carole King compositions, and a Del Shannon song, too.

The first album has only one song written by Gregg, the second had several more, but they were still forced to work with the same producer (Dallas Smith, known for his work with Bobby Vee, if that tells you anything) as on the first record, who still made decisions the band didn't like. Both records flopped (largely due to the record company not letting them tour outside of California).

After making the second album, the band went to Muscle Shoals to record a demo of blues oriented music that was closer to what they were playing live. Liberty rejected that, so the band broke up. Gregg and Duane went to Jacksonville, Florida (soon to be the home of Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Outlaws, and .38 Special) to hang out and record with a band called The 31st Of February, which included future Allman Brothers Band drummer Butch Trucks. Then Liberty threatened to sue the band if they didn't fulfill their contractual obligations, so Gregg went back to LA to record one more album (which went unreleased for decades), while Duane and the other guys in the band went to work at FAME studios for the time being.

Eventually, Duane was made an offer by Jerry Wexler at Atlantic Records, so Duane formed what was supposed to be a power trio. But then through various jam sessions ended up with a six piece band which initially included a keyboardist named Reese Wynans (who had been in The Second Coming with Dickie Betts and Berry Oakley, and would later play with both Captain Beyond and Stevie Ray Vaughan And Double Trouble). The story Butch Trucks once told was, after this one jam session, Duane went to the door and said "Anyone who doesn't want to be in my band gonna have to fight his way out". Apparently, Reese put up a fight, because Duane then called Gregg, who had just about wrapped up his obligations in LA, and had him come down to Macon, Georgia where they were rehearsing, and thus began The Allman Brothers Band.





Lots of great players you name there. A particular guitar or amp or pedal will contribute to the tone a given guitarist has, but as you point out, no gear is gonna give you that guitarist's mind, hands, personality or heart. What made those guys (and ltos of others) sound the way they did had a lot to do with it being that one guy.




I think The Yardbirds were an interesting mix of the two sides. They were bluesy, but I think that was largely the result of that being what was trendy at the time. And they certainly had the pop side covered with songs like For Your Love and You're A Better Man Than I.

I'm not sure about The Animals, but I would definitely say the Stones were a bit more authentic with their blues. You get the feeling that Keith Richards, at least, was a genuine dyed in the wool blues fan the way Clapton was, and that was what he wanted to do. And since Keith was one of the main songwriters in the band, he mostly got his way (except for that ill conceived idea to go psychedelic with Satanic Majesties, and Mick's later insistence on experimenting with "dance" music styles on songs like Miss You and Undercover Of The Night).

Super interesting post! Very informative

[Adm.Kirk]

All I can say about the Stones is listen to the new album. There have been two albums I listened to back to back when I first brought them home. One was the Anderson/Stolt and the other is Blue & Lonesome by The Rolling Stones. Jagger sounds like a man possessed and Keith, Ronnie and Charlie are playing pretty damn well. Just because it's a straight blues album, don't be deceived, the new Stones record is bad ass.

Bill

[Jerjo]

I've heard a couple tracks from the new album and yeah, they're fired up. I posted the new video for Ride Em On Down in one of the Stones threads. It sounds great and oh, the video looks really um good.

[Adm.Kirk]

Kristen Stewart...enough said. It's a cool video. The Stones making a true blues album is such a natural fit. You'd think it would be Richards that was the guy pushing this, but apparently Jagger was the one who got the hot hand. It shows too. I think it's one of best albums both in terms of vocals and harp. Not bad for a bunch of really old men.

Bill

[Adm.Kirk]

I've never been a huge fan of Don Was' production with the Stones. I though he did a good job with Stripped but the rest I didn't particularly like his style even though I liked the albums as a whole but, Blue And Lonesome is the best production job Was has helmed with the band. Why? Mainly because he took more of a hands off approach. It's raw, live in the studio with very little knob twiddling.

Bill

[JJ88]

New release covering the Page era incoming, encompassing the Anderson Theater show remixed and the New York studio outtakes of this period:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/1968-yardbirds-sessions-to-see-release.568316/page-12#post-17065228

Interesting to see that 'Knowing That I'm Losing You' will be included...that was a song which did not appear on Cumular Limit. It's said to be an early version of what later became 'Tangerine'.

Pretty much closes the book on The Yardbirds, unless the vaults are explored for treasure recorded in the Giorgio Gomelsky period.

[mogrooves]

^^^^^ faulty link.

[JJ88]

^Corrected now, they merged two threads together so the old thread didn't work.

There is now talk that this is exclusive to Page's website...

[harperbass]

New to this forum. i belong to a couple others, but they're not very friendly. Quite! Anyway, Does anyone know the story of the LONG unedited version of "Mr. You're A Better Man Than I"? Here's a cut 'n paste I put on another forum. There is supposedly a book by a guy named Russo that has the info, but the info is contrary to what I've always heard. And I don't wanna pay 20 bucks for another book of 20 year old guys. Could someone just tell me any details re: "Better Man Than I" and "Train Kept A Rollin'"? Hope I'm not asking too much.

to wit:

I can't figure out how to make a new topic, so I'll post it here. I probably have already done so. It concerns the details of Yardbirds' "Mr. You're A Better Man Than I". It's always been one of my faves, and several years ago I bought it on Itunes and it was the same master, but w/ an extra verse and obvious "underdubs". I know it was recorded at Sun by Sam Philips, and he did a mono mix. The next day (I think) they went to Chess in Chicago to record "Shapes Of Things". Though no one has said it in print that I know of, except the Charly box, and the Philips mix is mono, all I can figure is they overdubbed a new LOUDER bass and some harmony vocals at end atop the mono master, like sound on sound, at Chess. And edited out the other verse. Added lots of compression. Sounds great mono. Anyone know the real story? Dreja and McCartey talked a little bit about it in a book I have on The Yardbirds, but the only real details are they couldn't find Sam, he was fishing, and he finally came in, was paid $600 and he let Jeff Beck use his old Gibson amp, minus a speaker, to get the feedback. In "The Shapes of Things" book by Dreja, McCartey and John Platt, they say they cut 2 tracks at Sun and Relf was too drunk to sing. "And recorded the vocal elsewhere". They are probably mistaken. Have no idea if it was recorded live or there was an overdub. I got the impression it was a mono recording to begin with and stayed that way. Maybe it was 3 or 4 track. I dunno. The best notes are in that Charly box by Gomelsky. My friend Phil Cohen compiled that set in '92-'93.

Can anybody add anything else? The original, longer version is nowhere near a good a mix as it ended up, on "Having A Rave Up..." to my ears. But, I thought someone here might know. There is hardly any bass on the Philips mix, I s'pose that's why the nifty overdubbed louder bass makes it shine. Somehow the drums sound louder as well.

Guess I could email McCartey, but he probably wouldn't remember. Anyway. I heard it on radio today (!) and got me to wondering, again.

Regards.

Rick Harper

[Jerjo]

Wow, I didn't even know there was an unedited version. I tried a Google search but came up with nothing. Have you tried the Hoffman forum?

[strawberrybrick]

New to this forum. i belong to a couple others, but they're not very friendly. Quite! Anyway, Does anyone know the story of the LONG unedited version of "Mr. You're A Better Man Than I"? Here's a cut 'n paste I put on another forum. There is supposedly a book by a guy named Russo that has the info, but the info is contrary to what I've always heard. And I don't wanna pay 20 bucks for another book of 20 year old guys. Could someone just tell me any details re: "Better Man Than I" and "Train Kept A Rollin'"? Hope I'm not asking too much.

to wit:

I can't figure out how to make a new topic, so I'll post it here. I probably have already done so. It concerns the details of Yardbirds' "Mr. You're A Better Man Than I". It's always been one of my faves, and several years ago I bought it on Itunes and it was the same master, but w/ an extra verse and obvious "underdubs". I know it was recorded at Sun by Sam Philips, and he did a mono mix. The next day (I think) they went to Chess in Chicago to record "Shapes Of Things". Though no one has said it in print that I know of, except the Charly box, and the Philips mix is mono, all I can figure is they overdubbed a new LOUDER bass and some harmony vocals at end atop the mono master, like sound on sound, at Chess. And edited out the other verse. Added lots of compression. Sounds great mono. Anyone know the real story? Dreja and McCartey talked a little bit about it in a book I have on The Yardbirds, but the only real details are they couldn't find Sam, he was fishing, and he finally came in, was paid $600 and he let Jeff Beck use his old Gibson amp, minus a speaker, to get the feedback. In "The Shapes of Things" book by Dreja, McCartey and John Platt, they say they cut 2 tracks at Sun and Relf was too drunk to sing. "And recorded the vocal elsewhere". They are probably mistaken. Have no idea if it was recorded live or there was an overdub. I got the impression it was a mono recording to begin with and stayed that way. Maybe it was 3 or 4 track. I dunno. The best notes are in that Charly box by Gomelsky. My friend Phil Cohen compiled that set in '92-'93.

Can anybody add anything else? The original, longer version is nowhere near a good a mix as it ended up, on "Having A Rave Up..." to my ears. But, I thought someone here might know. There is hardly any bass on the Philips mix, I s'pose that's why the nifty overdubbed louder bass makes it shine. Somehow the drums sound louder as well.

Guess I could email McCartey, but he probably wouldn't remember. Anyway. I heard it on radio today (!) and got me to wondering, again.

Regards.

Rick Harper

Alan Clayson's book The Yardbirds (2002) confirms that "You're A Better Man Than I" was recorded on Sept 12th 1965 at Sun in Memphis and the vocals latter that month in NYC. Same reason given - Relf was inebriated; but no mention of a longer mix.