Prog Magazine Top 100 - The Full List

[Facelift]

Thanks for putting the work in to do that.

What I see as doing well there are albums that appeal to both us, a prog crowd, and a different, younger(?) crowd, be that post-rock (Radiohead, Godspeed!), '80s/'90s more-experimental pop (Bush, Talk Talk, Bjork), metal (Tool, Opeth)... or just popular '70s music that's a bit proggy (Bowie, Roxy). Much of that list appeals to many prog fans, but is not generally what most people mean by prog (Coltrane, Davis, Mingus, Beatles, Metallica, Bowie, Talk Talk, Bush, Iron Maiden, Reich, Brubeck, Coleman, Pumpkins &c.). Strip those out and you get... well, some of the same names again (Floyd, Yes, Crimson, Rush), but you also see certain bands that don't do great in popular-voted prog lists, but which have a cachet beyond prog fandom, with other audiences: e.g., Can, Brian Eno and Soft Machine. That, I find interesting.



Facelift just decided what to include and what not to include, so that was his categorisation decision, not RYM's.

Henry

I wanted to avoid the prospect of fishing into the 500s/600s/700s of their overall rankings in order to get 100 albums. Plus, I can guarantee that my normal definition of prog would be a lot more controversial for what got left out than the above is right now for what got put in.

[NogbadTheBad]

Ok, I've finally found someone with a broader definition of prog than me

[Facelift]

Ok, I've finally found someone with a broader definition of prog than me

I can can almost guarantee that it's much more restrictive.

Like I said, I was purposely overinclusive with the RYM thing. It's right there for anybody to filter as they choose.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I wanted to avoid the prospect of fishing into the 500s/600s/700s of their overall rankings in order to get 100 albums. Plus, I can guarantee that my normal definition of prog would be a lot more controversial for what got left out than the above is right now for what got put in.

so... you weeded out some albums that were on the top 100 at RYM? It seemed to me that the inclusion of all that straight Jazz and Metal was indicitive that it was an unedited top 100 of RYM. Amadeus may be safe after all... I may check RYM to make sure

[Facelift]

No, OKC is No. 1 overall.

It's hard to rate classical music on RYM - there are threads about this on there, as well as one here about how classical music in general lends itself least to the physical media format of all the music genres.

As for jazz, I made the decision to count experimental jazz; "experimental" meaning from the post-bop era onward.

If I was to eliminate all jazz that didn't have electric instruments, the following albums would have been there:

Mars Volta - De-Loused in the Comatorium
Porcupine Tree - In Absentia
The Who - Tommy
Queensryche - Operation Mindcrime
VDGG - Godbluff
Caravan - Land of Grey and Pink
Faust - Faust IV
Bjork - Vespertine
Neu! - st
Iron Maiden - Piece of Mind
Kraftwerk - Computer World
Bjork - Post
Zappa/Mothers - Freak Out
VDGG - H to HE
Neu! - Neu! '75

[dnieper]

Here's the RYM list for albums categorized on that site as "progressive rock," and I put asterisks next to albums that didn't show up in the Classic Rock Prog top 100:

1 Pink Floyd-The Dark Side of the Moon
2 Pink Floyd-Wish You Were Here
3 King Crimson-In the Court of the Crimson King
4 Pink Floyd-Animals
5 King Crimson-Red
6 Can-Tago Mago
7 Yes-Close to the Edge
8 Pink Floyd-Meddle
9 Pink Floyd-The Wall
10 Genesis-Selling England by the Pound
11 Can-Future Days*
12 Can-Ege Bamyasi*
13 Jethro Tull-Thick as a Brick
14 Tool-Lateralus
15 King Crimson-Larks' Tongues in Aspic
16 Jethro Tull-Aqualung
17 Yes-Fragile
18 Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom
19 Rush Moving-Pictures
20 Genesis-Foxtrot
21 Genesis-The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
22 Van der Graaf Generator-Pawn Hearts
23 Camel-Mirage
24 Soft Machine-Third*
25 Yes-The Yes Album
26 The Mars Volta-De-Loused in the Comatorium
27 Porcupine Tree-In Absentia
28 Van der Graaf Generator-Godbluff
29 Caravan-In the Land of Grey and Pink
30 Faust-Faust IV*
31 NEU!-NEU!*
32 Van der Graaf Generator-H to He Who Am the Only One*
33 NEU!-NEU! '75*
34 Genesis-Nursery Cryme
35 Amon Düül II-Yeti*
36 King Crimson-Discipline
37 Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention-One Size Fits All*
38 Rush-Hemispheres
39 Wishbone Ash-Argus*
40 Opeth-Damnation
41 Rush-Permanent Waves
42 Supertramp-Crime of the Century
43 Van der Graaf Generator-Still Life
44 Mike Oldfield-Ommadawn*
45 Rush-2112
46 Rush-A Farewell to Kings
47 Porcupine Tree-Lightbulb Sun*
48 Porcupine Tree-Deadwing
49 Premiata Forneria Marconi-Storia di un minuto*
50 Triana-El patio*
51 Camel-The Snow Goose
52 Magma-Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh*
53 Premiata Forneria Marconi-Per un amico*
54 Jethro Tull-Stand Up*
55 Marillion-Misplaced Childhood*
56 Porcupine Tree-Stupid Dream*
57 Camel-Moonmadness
58 Magma-K.A (Kohntarkosz Anteria)*
59 T2-It'll All Work Out in Boomland*
60 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso-Banco del Mutuo Soccorso*
61 Caravan-If I Could Do It All Over Again, I'd Do It All Over You*
62 Yes-Relayer
63 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso-Darwin!*
64 Porcupine Tree-Fear of a Blank Planet
65 Renaissance-Scheherazade and Other Stories*
66 Peter Hammill-The Silent Corner and the Empty Stage*
67 Invisible-El jardín de los presentes*
68 Mike Oldfield-Tubular Bells
69 Gentle Giant-Octopus
70 Faust-Faust*
71 Uriah Heep-Look at Yourself*
72 Änglagård-Hybris*
73 Jethro Tull-Songs From the Wood
74 Banco del Mutuo Soccorso-Io sono nato libero*
75 Genesis-A Trick of the Tail
76 Gentle Giant-Acquiring the Taste
77 Traffic-John Barleycorn Must Die*
78 Marillion-Clutching at Straws
79 Museo Rosenbach-Zarathustra*
80 The Moody Blues-Days of Future Passed*
81 Eskaton-4 Visions*
82 The Can-Monster Movie*
83 Kingston Wall-II*
84 Le Orme-Felona e Sorona*
85 King Crimson-Starless and Bible Black*
86 Renaissance-Ashes Are Burning*
87 Kraftwerk-Autobahn*
88 Popol Vuh-In den Gärten Pharaos*
89 Colosseum-Valentyne Suite*
90 Gong-Flying Teapot*
91 Magma-Köhntarkösz*
92 Hatfield and the North-The Rotters' Club*
93 Gentle Giant-In a Glass House*
94 The Soft Machine-Volume Two*
95 Czesław Niemen-Enigmatic*
96 Gong-You*
97 Marillion-Marbles
98 The Soft Machine-The Soft Machine*
99 Khan-Space Shanty*
100 Riverside-Out of Myself*

And here's my "analysis":
(1) Classic Rock Proggers (CRPs) don't like krautrock (or Canterbury) anywhere near as much as RYM voters.
(2) There are many British proto-prog/hard rock albums in the RYM list that didn't show up on the CRP list (Wishbone Ash, VDGG's H to He, Uriah Heep, Traffic, T2, Khan, Soft Machine 1/2, Colosseum)- so if there is a "British bias," it doesn't seem to go back earlier than the 1980's (or maybe the CRPs just don't consider these albums to be Prog).
(3) The CRPs don't seem to like or be aware of music with singing in a language other than English. The RYM list has at least 15 albums with non-English vocals; the CRP list has 0. I still say that's the most interesting thing.
(4) A few artists had one album in the RYM list and a different album in the CRP list (Frank Zappa, Renaissance, Moody Blues, Jethro Tull)- maybe this is somehow a result of people who tend to limit their choices to one album per band?
(5) It's surprising that PT's Lightbulb Sun and VDGG's H to He were in the RYM list but not the CRP list, since those albums charted high on the RYM list and both bands had other albums in the CRP list - maybe another result of people listing one album per band?
(6) It's also surprising that a seemingly-CRP-approved band like Riverside made the RYM list (albeit just barely) but not the CRP list.
(7) The two lists have 47 albums in common.

[Facelift]

Here's the RYM list for albums categorized on that site as "progressive rock," And here's my "analysis":
(1) Classic Rock Proggers (CRPs) don't like krautrock (or Canterbury) anywhere near as much as RYM voters.
(2) There are many British proto-prog/hard rock albums in the RYM list that didn't show up on the CRP list (Wishbone Ash, VDGG's H to He, Uriah Heep, Traffic, T2, Khan, Soft Machine 1/2, Colosseum)- so if there is a "British bias," it doesn't seem to go back earlier than the 1980's (or maybe the CRPs just don't consider these albums to be Prog).
(3) The CRPs don't seem to like or be aware of music with singing in a language other than English. The RYM list has at least 15 albums with non-English vocals; the CRP list has 0. I still say that's the most interesting thing.
(4) A few artists had one album in the RYM list and a different album in the CRP list (Frank Zappa, Renaissance, Moody Blues, Jethro Tull)- maybe this is somehow a result of people who tend to limit their choices to one album per band?
(5) It's surprising that PT's Lightbulb Sun was in the RYM list but not the CRP list.
(6) It's also surprising that a seemingly-CRP-approved band like Riverside made the RYM list (albeit just barely) but not the CRP list.

The problem here is that you used a definition so restrictive that lots of things typically understood as prog (Mahavishnu Orchestra, for example, and all of prog-metal) weren't included. Also, after checking, only 68 of those albums are in the RYM top 1000 overall. It would be tough to say that the Riverside album, for example, is doing particularly *well* on the site if its actual ranking is between 1500 and 2000. Also, down into the later 800 and into the 1000s, small groups of enthusiastic people can put an album into the rankings. Some of the albums on the bottom of the prog-filtered list have only a few hundred ratings - compared to the stuf in the top 10, where each has over 20,000 ratings.

[dnieper]

I'd still argue that using RYM's definition of "progressive rock" is as close as you can get to the one in the minds of CRP voters, without getting into personal judgment and arbitariness.

[Sunlight Caller]

That's a really interesting take on the RYM list, thank you to Facelift for putting in the effort to piece that together and share.

It certainly gives a broader spectrum of what appeals to progressive minded listeners. Whilst we post and chat on PE, not many of us are exclusively prog fans are we, so it's always interesting to see a wider audience view on those albums we revere, be they progressive rock, post rock, art rock, jazz, fusion, that reward deeper appreciation.

Mind you, we have got to do something to get Canterbury higher up these damn charts

[NogbadTheBad]

I think it tells you a lot about Pink Floyd's broader appeal that they take up 5 of the top 10 on dnieper's version of the RYM top 100.

[zombywoof]

Here's what I'm missing from the RYM list (which is a pretty decent list IMO).

18 Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom

31 NEU!-NEU!*

33 NEU!-NEU! '75*

39 Wishbone Ash-Argus*

50 Triana-El patio*

56 Porcupine Tree-Stupid Dream*

59 T2-It'll All Work Out in Boomland*

67 Invisible-El jardín de los presentes*

83 Kingston Wall-II*

84 Le Orme-Felona e Sorona*

88 Popol Vuh-In den Gärten Pharaos*

89 Colosseum-Valentyne Suite*

95 Czesław Niemen-Enigmatic*

97 Marillion-Marbles

100 Riverside-Out of Myself*

[NogbadTheBad]

Ok - you need to get these

18 Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom
31 NEU!-NEU!*
84 Le Orme-Felona e Sorona*
88 Popol Vuh-In den Gärten Pharaos*

[k3no444]

I own 64 of them, a few of them are mentioned on my blog. Not that bad I think. Now off to get the remaining 36!

[bob_32_116]

There's a few entries in there that made me go "WTF" but overall I don't have too many problems with that list. I own 23 of them. Out of the top 10, I have seven.

[Trane]

And here's my "analysis":
(1) Classic Rock Proggers (CRPs) don't like krautrock (or Canterbury) anywhere near as much as RYM voters.
(2) There are many British proto-prog/hard rock albums in the RYM list that didn't show up on the CRP list (Wishbone Ash, VDGG's H to He, Uriah Heep, Traffic, T2, Khan, Soft Machine 1/2, Colosseum)- so if there is a "British bias," it doesn't seem to go back earlier than the 1980's (or maybe the CRPs just don't consider these albums to be Prog).
(3) The CRPs don't seem to like or be aware of music with singing in a language other than English. The RYM list has at least 15 albums with non-English vocals; the CRP list has 0. I still say that's the most interesting thing.
(4) A few artists had one album in the RYM list and a different album in the CRP list (Frank Zappa, Renaissance, Moody Blues, Jethro Tull)- maybe this is somehow a result of people who tend to limit their choices to one album per band?
(5) It's surprising that PT's Lightbulb Sun and VDGG's H to He were in the RYM list but not the CRP list, since those albums charted high on the RYM list and both bands had other albums in the CRP list - maybe another result of people listing one album per band?
(6) It's also surprising that a seemingly-CRP-approved band like Riverside made the RYM list (albeit just barely) but not the CRP list.
(7) The two lists have 47 albums in common.

I'm much more in agreement with the RYM list (regardless about the places, it's mostly about who made it in), but RYM has an international readership, while I'd tend to believe PROG's readership is made up from above 75% UK'ers
1) Isn't very surprising, right
2) one of the only shocker/wtf for me was T2 in RYM'slist >> I like it, but I'm surprised it's that high
3) Hence my comments about PROG's readership
6) Riverside is Polish band, so UK voters probably don't have much a chance to see them... and the John Bull mentality will do the rest

[bob_32_116]

I could quibble about how I would change the order of certain entries: I like Going For the One better than Close to the Edge for example... I prefer Steven Wilson's other two solo albums over the Raven... I prefer Atom Heart Mother to The Wall.... etc etc. Mostly though as I said I find that list fairly satisfying.

Except for one glaring omission:

The Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed.

[JJ88]

I think The Moody Blues often get overlooked, though they were key instigators of the whole thing. I listen to them more now than I ever did.

I initially was non-plussed about all the orchestra on DOFP. Now I think Peter Knight's work is very nicely done, using the band's own melodies to create bridges between the songs and allow the album to flow beautifully.

[Trane]

Procol Harum get even more overlooked than TMB, IMHO

[JJ88]

6) Riverside is Polish band, so UK voters probably don't have much a chance to see them... and the John Bull mentality will do the rest

I've seen you say these kind of things before. I would point out that in the 70s European progressive bands had a considerable cult following in the UK, some like Focus, Kraftwerk and Can even having hit singles. British labels such as Manticore (PFM), Virgin (Faust), Charisma (Bo Hansson), Vertigo (Kraftwerk), United Artists/Liberty etc (Can, Amon Duul II), Dandelion (Supersister) etc. all released albums by European bands.

The UK was far more receptive to non-British European bands than the US seems to have been back then. So the idea that British prog fans are somehow territorial doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

[Esoteric]

Jj88 you are correct and of course we can put Magma for instance on in big venues here.

[chalkpie]

Rotters' Club is NUMBER ONE and always will be.

[Trane]

I've seen you say these kind of things before. I would point out that in the 70s European progressive bands had a considerable cult following in the UK, some like Focus, Kraftwerk and Can even having hit singles. British labels such as Manticore (PFM), Virgin (Faust), Charisma (Bo Hansson), Vertigo (Kraftwerk), United Artists/Liberty etc (Can, Amon Duul II), Dandelion (Supersister) etc. all released albums by European bands.

The UK was far more receptive to non-British European bands than the US seems to have been back then. So the idea that British prog fans are somehow territorial doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

Yeah, you forgot to mention Françoise Hardy
And comparing UK to US's openness to non-English-sung music is like comparing Bhutan's freedom-of-tourism* to North Korea's... sort of having to choose between the plague and the cholera... (though I'll choose Bhutan anyday of the century)

How about doing the reverse operation... The 70's French, Benelux, German, Italian top charts were riddled with UK albums... and that includes Tom Jones (oops, sorry... he's Welsh ), Petula Clark, Humperdinck, and countless other non-rock artistes... So now, let's compare how many foreign albums were in the 70's UK top charts...

Simple question of exposure... Continental radios played UK music all day long... Not aware that BBC or other UK radios played more than one foreign artiste par day... It's a form of (unwritten) protectionism



* this is not widely known but Bhutan's tourism is strictly limited (both in numbers, but also as to allowed activities and access to entire provinces) and subjected to state-paid guides accompniance 24/24

[JJ88]

Continental radios played UK music all day long... Not aware that BBC or other UK radios played more than one foreign artiste par day... It's a form of (unwritten) protectionism



* this is not widely known but Bhutan's tourism is strictly limited (both in numbers, but also as to allowed activities and access to entire provinces) and subjected to state-paid guides accompniance 24/24

All I can say is

Where on earth have you heard this?? On the BBC John Peel championed a lot of the European progressive groups...Alan Freeman was another rock DJ of the time who I believe gave them air-time as well. Have you forgotten about all the 'BBC sessions' CDs by many of these groups?? PFM have one coming out now via Vicky.

And I've stated that Can, Kraftwerk and Focus actually had singles on the chart here. Some of these groups certainly had album chart placings as well...Tangerine Dream, who I'd forgotten, are another. Polydor put out their stuff and then Virgin did...they even recorded many of their Virgin albums here in the UK! (If we're talking non-rock, again the 70s and late 60s had several non-British Number 1s- Serge Gainsbourg, Charles Aznavour, Demis Roussos!!)

I'm not sure where this idea that Britain refuses to accept European bands comes from. Certainly in the 70s this is not the case. I wasn't even there and yet the facts are clear.

[Galactic Bulldozer]

1 Pink Floyd The Dark Side of the Moon (1973) 1
2 Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here (1975) 2
3 King Crimson In the Court of the Crimson King (1969) 3
4 King Crimson Red (1974) 5
5 Can Tago Mago (1971) 6
6 NEU! NEU! '75 (1975) 33
7 Can Future Days (1973) 11
8 Tool Lateralus (2001) 14
9 Pink Floyd Animals (1977) 4
10 Jethro Tull Thick as a Brick (1972) 13
11 Cardiacs Sing to God (1996)
12 Can Ege Bamyasi (1972) 12
13 Wishbone Ash Argus (1972) 39
14 Yes Close to the Edge (1972) 7
15 Porcupine Tree In Absentia (2002) 27
16 Pink Floyd Meddle (1971) 8
17 Robert Wyatt Rock Bottom (1974) 18
18 Rush Moving Pictures (1981) 19
19 Genesis The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (1974) 21
20 Porcupine Tree Deadwing (2005) 48
21 Genesis Selling England by the Pound (1973) 10
22 Porcupine Tree Lightbulb Sun (2000) 47
23 Porcupine Tree Stupid Dream (1999) 56
24 Jethro Tull Songs From the Wood (1977) 73
25 King Crimson Larks' Tongues in Aspic (1973) 15
26 Rush Permanent Waves (1980) 41
27 Van der Graaf Generator Pawn Hearts (1971) 22
28 Gong Camembert Electrique (1971)
29 Mike Oldfield Ommadawn (1975) 44
30 Yes Fragile (1971) 17
31 Rush A Farewell to Kings (1977) 46
32 Genesis Foxtrot (1972) 20
33 Caravan In the Land of Grey and Pink (1971) 29
34 Yes The Yes Album (1971) 25
35 Oceansize Frames (2007)
36 Marillion Marbles (2004) 97
37 Marillion Brave (1994)
38 Genesis A Trick of the Tail (1976) 76
39 Jethro Tull Aqualung (1971) 16
40 Van der Graaf Generator Godbluff (1975) 28
41 NEU! NEU! (1972) 31
42 Faust Faust IV (1973) 30
43 Oceansize Effloresce (2003)
44 Rush 2112 (1976) 45
45 Van der Graaf Generator Still Life (1976) 43
46 Mansun Six (1998)
47 Van der Graaf Generator H to He Who Am the Only One (1970) 32
48 Jeff Wayne The War of the Worlds (1978)
49 Pink Floyd The Wall (1979) 9
50 Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention One Size Fits All (1975) 37
51 Supertramp Crime of the Century (1974) 42
52 Amon Düül II Yeti (1970) 35
53 Porcupine Tree Signify (1996)
54 Rush Hemispheres (1978)
55 Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells (1973) 68
56 Porcupine Tree Fear of a Blank Planet (2007) 64
57 Marillion Script for a Jester's Tear (1983)
58 Soft Machine Third (1970) 24
59 Marillion Fugazi (1984)
60 Marillion Clutching at Straws (1987) 78
61 King Crimson Discipline (1981) 36
62 Jethro Tull Stand Up (1969) 54
63 Electric Light Orchestra A New World Record (1976)
64 Caravan If I Could Do It All Over Again, I'd Do It All Over You (1970) 61
65 Atomic Rooster Death Walks Behind You (1970)
66 Soft Machine The Soft Machine (1968) 98
67 Mike Oldfield Hergest Ridge (1974)
68 Camel Mirage (1974) 23
69 Mars Volta De-Loused in the Comatorium (2003) 26
70 Steven Wilson Insurgentes (2008)
71 Oceansize Everyone Into Position (2005)
72 Cardiacs A Little Man and a House and the Whole World Window (1988)
73 Opeth Damnation (2003) 40
74 Magma Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh (1973)
75 Kraftwerk Radio-Aktivität (1975)
76 Tangerine Dream Phaedra (1974)
77 Rush Grace Under Pressure (1984)
78 Mothers of Invention Uncle Meat (1969)
79 Gong Angel's Egg (1973)
80 Soft Machine Volume Two (1969) 94
81 Gong You (1974) 96
82 Genesis Nursery Cryme (1971) 34
83 Cardiacs On Land and in the Sea (1989)
84 Family Music in a Doll's House (1968)
85 Porcupine Tree The Sky Moves Sideways (1995)
86 Jean Michel Jarre Equinoxe (1978)
87 Jean Michel Jarre Oxygene (1976)
88 Can Monster Movie (1969) 82
89 Electric Light Orchestra Eldorado (1974)
90 King Crimson Starless and Bible Black (1974) 85
91 Klaus Schulze Timewind (1975)
92 Can Soundtracks (1970)
93 Marillion Misplaced Childhood (1985) 55
94 Hawkwind Quark Strangeness and Charm (1977)
95 Faust The Faust Tapes (1973)
96 Tangerine Dream Rubycon (1975)
97 Cluster Zuckerzeit (1974)
98 Gong Flying Teapot (1973) 90
99 Peter Hammill Chameleon in the Shadow of the Night (1973)
100 Uriah Heep Look at Yourself (1971) 71


Rym top progressive rock + electronic by UK only compared to previous Rym chart

[Trane]

All I can say is

Where on earth have you heard this?? On the BBC John Peel championed a lot of the European progressive groups...Alan Freeman was another rock DJ of the time who I believe gave them air-time as well. Have you forgotten about all the 'BBC sessions' CDs by many of these groups?? PFM have one coming out now via Vicky.

And I've stated that Can, Kraftwerk and Focus actually had singles on the chart here. Some of these groups certainly had album chart placings as well...Tangerine Dream, who I'd forgotten, are another. Polydor put out their stuff and then Virgin did...they even recorded many of their Virgin albums here in the UK! (If we're talking non-rock, again the 70s and late 60s had several non-British Number 1s- Serge Gainsbourg, Charles Aznavour, Demis Roussos!!)

I'm not sure where this idea that Britain refuses to accept European bands comes from. Certainly in the 70s this is not the case. I wasn't even there and yet the facts are clear.

Relax dude , I never said that this was a one-way street, because all of these examples you citen, I'm plainly aware of.... but the "commercial balance" between UK and individual continental countries was anthing but balanced . Ok, top 40 radio lists may not reflect exactly album sales, but they're an indication, since repeated airplay translates int sales.


All you have to see the 70's German, Italian or French rock charts (let's focus back onto rock charts >> I shouldn't have wandered away from that >> my bad, but I couldn't resist plunging into Hardy's popularity across the Channel) and see that they were up to 50 or 60% filled by British albums all year-round... When a continental album made the UK top 20 list, it was such a rare event that you can name/count them on your two hands over a 15-year period.