Bent Knee - best band from the US in a long while?

[markwoll]

Their recorded stuff is uneven at best compared to their live performances IMHO.
I found the audiotree performance excellent, autotune included. Leak Water was spine tingling.
I followed some of their youtube stuff ( individual and group-ish ) during pandemic and found it interesting. Didn't like everything. But that is ok.
Change is change. I'm glad they are not trying to fit new words to slightly reworked arrangements of the same sounds. There is plenty of that sort of stuff out there. Bands that I have not kept up with because it was all just the same.
They may leave me behind someday, but I will still have the stuff that I like of their work.

[aith01]

If it was an age thing, I wouldn't like vast swaths of classical, jazz, and various pop and rock that came well before my time. I've already given my own reasons in this very thread and I hardly think it's a knee-jerk reaction, particularly when I've given it so many chances. It's made all the worse by the fact that I truly love so much of what they've done prior. There's plenty of pop and electronic music in my collection. I thought Duran Duran's record last year was terrific, for but one modern example. But they opted to make the songs the focus, and kept the other elements tastefully blended, without swamping the entire batch in 'sound design' and making a mess of it in the process.

My question about it being an age thing was due to the comparisons I was seeing to "modern/autotuned pop music" (and Adele, Billie Eilish, etc.), that's all. I know I am a bit younger than some of the people on here, and like things that some folks here don't (like that Max Tundra + Daphne & Celeste album from a few years ago). The autotune seems to be an immediate turn-off for some people, which I'm not arguing the validity of. I was just asking for the reasons I stated here above.

If you don't like the songs, you don't like the songs.

Oh, and the "knee-jerk" phrase was meant as tongue-in-cheek, with the band's name and all.

I know you're often baffled when people don't like things

Well I think that's a bit unfair. I'm also often baffled when people do like things.

[aith01]

I find it interesting that some people don't get when someone doesn't like something, and then goes looking for answers other than the ones we are giving. I just don't think it's a very strong record. If it was an ageism thing, I wouldn't listen to large chunks of the music that I listen to, as it is. It just seems to me like a lot of the strengths of the band (vocals, guitar, live drums) are buried on this release. To them, they may be embracing a new way of working, necessitated by Covid, or they just want to change it up, and that's great. It doesn't mean that if I don't like it, it's because of some flaw in me, being unable to grasp that genre.

Neil

It's possible my "age" question was misunderstood. It was primarily Baribrotzer's comments about modern music that prompted me to ask the age thing. I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone is "flawed" for not liking Frosting.

Equating the music to Adele and/or Billie Eilish as an intrinsic criticism -- or outright dismissal as somehow 'not real music' -- is what I was getting at. I disagree with that sentiment. There's a whole generation of bedroom pop musicians who make music with their laptop/PC and whatever instruments and recording software tools they have available. That's no less real than what a full band puts down in a studio or on a record.

IMO.

[JKL2000]

Lets just leave it at "it's an age thing," because aith01 and I are so much younger than the rest of you. I can accept that answer.

[aith01]

I'm not greatest fanboy of Bent Knee, though I really enjoy some of their earlier work, Courtney herself, and when the band goes shows some chops.

I should also state that I probably listen to more indie, dream pop, art rock, electronic, trip hop, experimental pop, etc. than probably 90% of the regular posters here. I also very much enjoy The Future Bites. I say these things to add context, and that I'm not dismissed as a Magma loving snob.

Actually I'm not a huge fan of Bent Knee either -- I have a few of their albums and I like them, but I'm by no means a die hard or anything.

In recent years I've gotten a better idea of your musical taste (and how much we actually have in common, like the last albums by Muse, Tame Impala, and Steven Wilson), so I already know you're not a Magma loving snob. But even if you were, it would be okay.

Back to Bent Knee, yes, number one reason are the songs drenched in auto tune, but obviously done for effect and not to correct pitch. But I don't care for that effect, in the same way others don't care for squonking saxophones in jazz. Whether it's your favorite artist or not is not relevant in this case. What makes this an extra letdown is that Courtney's raw voice is the main draw for me in any context, so that is ruined.

But beyond that, the compositions are not engaging for the most part. And that has been an issue since before Frosting with me personally. They are great performers and have natural talent, but the songwriting keeps sinking. Even somewhat more interesting experiments like "The Upward Spiral" and "OMG" feel empty. The elements are there, and while I respect any group that experiments with their sound, they aren't able to execute them IMO in a way where the sum becomes greater than the parts.

You make some interesting points, and reading your post made me realize that Courtney's voice has never been the main draw for me when it comes to Bent Knee. That may have something to do with why the autotune effects don't bother me. I can understand why that would be a detracting aspect for someone who really likes her natural voice.

Also, I wasn't the biggest fan of You Know What They Mean, although I still think it's good. Frosting being such a sonic shift was another thing that made me more interested.

For me, Frosting locks the door and throws away the key on a group I was already progressively losing interest in.

This is a fair point too. For me Frosting had kind of the opposite effect, but I do understand where you're coming from.

[boilk]

Equating the music to Adele and/or Billie Eilish as an intrinsic criticism -- or outright dismissal as somehow 'not real music' -- is what I was getting at. I disagree with that sentiment. There's a whole generation of bedroom pop musicians who make music with their laptop/PC and whatever instruments and recording software tools they have available. That's no less real than what a full band puts down in a studio or on a record.

IMO.

Fair points. I liken what you're saying in a way, to a Martin Scorcese comment regarding Marvel Universe movies, specifically Avengers: Endgame. Marty basically opined that it wasn't 'a real movie', presumably due to all the CGI and green/blue/grey, whatever colour of screen, filming involved. Of course it's a real movie, just not in the way that he is comfortable, or used to making them.

Neil

[Kcrimso]

Fair points. I liken what you're saying in a way, to a Martin Scorcese comment regarding Marvel Universe movies, specifically Avengers: Endgame. Marty basically opined that it wasn't 'a real movie', presumably due to all the CGI and green/blue/grey, whatever colour of screen, filming involved. Of course it's a real movie, just not in the way that he is comfortable, or used to making them.

Neil

I believe Scorsese meant more storytelling aspects of Marvel movies than technical stuff. Scorsese himself has done some very technical films himself too.

[moecurlythanu]

There's a whole generation of bedroom pop musicians who make music with their laptop/PC and whatever instruments and recording software tools they have available. That's no less real than what a full band puts down in a studio or on a record.

The ghost of Skullhead is sticking pins in an aith01 doll as we speak.

[aith01]

The ghost of Skullhead is sticking pins in an aith01 doll as we speak.

I actually laughed out loud in real life.

[Baribrotzer]

But beyond that, the compositions are not engaging for the most part. And that has been an issue since before Frosting with me personally. They are great performers and have natural talent, but the songwriting keeps sinking.

That's one of the problems I have. More and more, their songs sound assembled rather than written. Like four people brought in one-or-two bar musical fragments - and then, rather than sitting down, working on and modifying them, and trying to make them flow one into the next, they were butted and superglued together, and finally Vince applied a shiny coat of paint all over everything so the whole assemblage looked like one object.

[boilk]

I believe Scorsese meant more storytelling aspects of Marvel movies than technical stuff. Scorsese himself has done some very technical films himself too.

Oh for sure, Scorcese has done some incredible things with camera shots, for instance and that may be your interpretation, but reviewing his comments, I believe that he's talking more about the whole big blockbuster style of movie...loaded with CGI and on set work in front of screens, that results in only those types of franchise, big money movies getting into theatres. Coppola actually called Marvel movies "despicable", lol.

As someone who grew up absolutely loving comic books, horror movies and the like (and still loves them), and who endured decades of high-brow, dismissive critics and filmmakers, treating stuff like that as garbage, they can fuck right off. Now that these kinds of things are popular, well made, making lots of money and lo and behold, sometimes these movies actually have deep characterizations, adult concepts, and are well-written, and they don't like it. Well too bad.

But I digress. This one is a sore spot, for me. Back to Bent Knee.

Neil

[moecurlythanu]

^ Preach it, brother!

[boilk]

^ Preach it, brother!

Neil

[chalkpie]

Straight elbow.

[Kcrimso]

Oh for sure, Scorcese has done some incredible things with camera shots, for instance and that may be your interpretation, but reviewing his comments, I believe that he's talking more about the whole big blockbuster style of movie...loaded with CGI and on set work in front of screens, that results in only those types of franchise, big money movies getting into theatres. Coppola actually called Marvel movies "despicable", lol.

Neil

Scorsese made 3D movie Hugo that is full of CGI so I don't think that is his problem with Marvel movies.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I believe Scorsese meant more storytelling aspects of Marvel movies than technical stuff. Scorsese himself has done some very technical films himself too.

He was speaking in terms of both narratological and generally conceptual evaluations and interpretations. As in "What's a film actually supposed/expected to be - or represent?" in regard to aspects of both artistic and ideological leverage, as opposed to strictly theoretical and/or technical limits of realization. For instance, he has on more than one occasion pointed to the fact that you can no longer portray "bad" or multi-dimensional protagonists in film without them being equally demanded to stand trial to whatever trope of scrutiny which may inhabit the current cultural climate. In other words, you can no longer actually expose "man" for what he is in force of what he has been throughout.

I clearly remember Scorsese's outspoken dismay of Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, saying something to the effect that the film was immensely entertaining but sheer revisionism and consequently intended as a commercialist-political statement towards the "role of man" or something to that extent. As an historian myself, I can certainly see where he's coming from - although I'm obviously not a filmmaker and so don't have to relate to dilemmas of theoretical craftsmanship. I personally think Kingdom of Heaven (director's cut) is a fantastically suggestive and engaging film, although it's historically preposterous. It's the principle of "disbelief suspended" all over.

[boilk]

Scorsese made 3D movie Hugo that is full of CGI so I don't think that is his problem with Marvel movies.

I didn't say the CGI, unto itself, but rather the way these movies use CGI and are loaded with it, that he feels robs the essence of what movies are. I'm sure he thinks the way he uses it, is only to enhance his vision. Of course he also feels that there is no true drama, or sense of unexpectedness in these movies, but I think that's rubbish too. I'm pretty sure that not many people figured upon the ultimate fate of Iron Man at the end of Avengers: Endgame.

Also, Hugo, despite some critical accolades and awards, barely made back the money spent on it, so there's that. Anyways, we'll have to agree to disagree, apparently.

Scorsese is a great filmmaker and a huge fan of Italian maestro Mario Bava, whose movies I love, so I certainly have nothing against him. I simply believe that him thinking Marvel movies aren't real movies, is a ridiculous assertion. Moving on.

Neil

[Baribrotzer]

I simply believe that him thinking Marvel movies aren't real movies, is a ridiculous assertion. Moving on.

They're real movies, they just aren't real films. You know, real films, as in The Bicycle Thief, or Le Jour se Leve; or maybe even Citizen Kane. The James Bond movies and the Star Wars series are also movies but not films, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is both, whereas Battlefield Earth and Plan 9 from Outer Space are neither.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Good-to-great onto Say So.

That YT-video of "Being Human" remains their biggest triumph, IMO. I find their later stuff fairly uninteresting, and not only because they signed to InsideOut.

[MDC]

I must admit that I'm both fascinated and perplexed by the fact that there is so little love, if any around these parts, for You Know What They Mean. It was my album of the year and I love it. I thought it was the work of a maturing band, skillfully combining all of their influences, talents and resources on to a very consistent, solid, adventurous and deep record. Frosting is still leaving me almost completely cold, but I'm sure I'll go back and give it another go.

Neil

For me, I think it comes down to production. Compared to BK's other albums, YKWIM sounds much more compressed and harsh to my ears. I'm quite a fan of many of the songs, and was at the release concert in Boston where they played the album in sequence (which was wonderful IMO). I think I just tend to reach for something that sounds more inviting when I want my BK fix.

[JKL2000]

Good-to-great onto Say So.

That YT-video of "Being Human" remains their biggest triumph, IMO. I find their later stuff fairly uninteresting, and not only because they signed to InsideOut.

Frosting isn't on InsideOut, BTW. It's on some indie label.

[NogbadTheBad]

For me, I think it comes down to production. Compared to BK's other albums, YKWIM sounds much more compressed and harsh to my ears. I'm quite a fan of many of the songs, and was at the release concert in Boston where they played the album in sequence (which was wonderful IMO). I think I just tend to reach for something that sounds more inviting when I want my BK fix.

I was at that gig, it was very good.

[boilk]

They're real movies, they just aren't real films. Battlefield Earth and Plan 9 from Outer Space are neither.

Plan 9 is transcendent. Only Robot Monster and They Saved Hitler's Brain can hope to touch it. Remember, a movie or a film's one job is to be entertaining and not boring. Good, bad...these things are mere philosophical constructs. Say what you will about Ed Wood, but the man truly loved film. The fact that he was not a skilled maker of said films, does not blunt my enjoyment of them. Of course, I also love Zulawski's Possession and Tarkovsky's Stalker.

Neil

[zombywoof]

Gavin Wallace-Ailsworth, drummer extraordinaire from Bent Knee and friend of the channel, joins me today to talk about their new album "Twenty Pills Without Water." Most of our conversation centers around influences, but we also discuss production, drumming and Gavin's song "Cowboy."

Don't forget to comment-like-subscribe ! Gavin will be back on the channel soon to chat about the new "Apostrophe (')" 50th anniversary boxed set. You won't want to miss it !