Composing music

[Hobo Chang Ba]

You could always sing the idea and record it on your cell/smart phone. I've done this. The only problem is when I play it back it never sounds the great idea it was in my head.

Hey...now that's not a bad idea. I don't why I didn't think of that. haha.

And that second part is most likely going to happen to me as well. :/

[B D]

Hi Sonic, David, everyone:
I keep trying to come into the conversation but feel silly about what I posted and delete it 2 minutes later...I'll try not to this time!

when they are "finished" they are far afield from the thing they heard in the first place.

This has saved a lot of my songs, letting them go somewhere I hadn't originally thought of. If you trust your sense of when to let that happen it can make all the difference! I've started out with many a trite little ditty that grows into something quite nice by completely abandoning whatever I'd originally thought about it. I suppose that this is also just part of the process of developing the shape of the piece, discovering all the little angles and off-shoots and ways to connect the different places you get to in the song.

Something that works really well for me in writing a song is letting the melody lead the way. I've written plenty (especially in the early days) based only on the chord progression, and finding a melody for it later, but I feel like the songs that have the best substance in the end over the years have been the ones where the melody was always the thread, and the thing that always suggested where the thing would go.

That reminds me - another reason for letting the melody lead the way is that the songs tend to be less square and rectangular that way. I can often tell when a song was written based only on the chord sequences because in each part of the song the melody often ends but the chord sequence or riff trudges on for another few bars or beats for no other reason that to complete the sequence again. I don't know how many bands I was in during the late 70's/early 80's where the band came up with songs before we had a singer, and the poor singer had to try and fit a vocal melody over what we'd come up with. Then I'd hear a song written by someone who was the singer, and wow it was so obvious that the melody and voice were leading the way. The song might need some tidying up, but in general the flow and shape were always much nicer.

You've been discussing writing lyrics: I know for sure that a lot of people get stuck when it comes to lyrics because they've been taught or have otherwise gotten the idea so deeply implanted in their head that the lyrics must have some literal meaning or be instructive, or be about their personal experiences, feelings and opinions and all that. If you are having that problem, and don't want to write autobiographically, once you can forget about trying to be personal or "express yourself" it gets a lot easier. You can tell a story, about ANYTHING! Or don't tell any story and combine words that sound good together or give you a little nudge from beyond, and are good to sing. There is certainly a kind of magic in that, the word imagery you might come up with you never could have consciously imagined. And the way you construct phrases and words will become personal anyway. For me, listening to the lyrics, the way it sounds and how it's delivered is more important than what it literally says.

OK I promise not to delete this one after two minutes!
Bob
www.bdrak.com

[fictionmusic]

I agree with you Bob about letting the inspiration take your where it will and often a better tune will come out (I said as much earlier when I quoted your original post but it, along with your post seems to have disappeared...no matter). I absolutely agree that tracking the tune down leads to new and interesting alleys, but I also think that being able to get the original idea down as seamlessly as possible is good, not so much because it prohibits more development and improvement but that it allows the original inspiration to come through. I wish I could have done that with some pieces I could hear entirely in my head but was unable to bring out right. Instead I got what my fingers were used to.
I also agree with you about letting the melody define the structure and not the chord chart, but I tend to like the communication of rhythm where the listener can anticipate the changes and kind of get in the groove with the band as it were. When beats are dropped too many times to close the gap between melodic passages, the flow seesm stilted sometimes. Or maybe it is a throwback from hearing my mother sing in the car. She'd jump from lyric to lyric without any thought of the groove behind. It drove me crazy because often the parts she skipped contained my favorite little riffs and bass lines. If you know the Jesus Christ Superstar album there is a piece that has this nifty little Dmin riff on an open string. The words come in (my mind is clearer now....at last all too well I can see where we all soon will be....) My mom always closed the gaps between the phrases and that nifty riff was ousted. Grrr.
I totally agree with yoy when you say "the way you construct phrases and words will become personal anyway. For me, listening to the lyrics, the way it sounds and how it's delivered is more important than what it literally says". I think we tend to find personal meaning in pretty well everything around us anyway. My favorite lyrics always seemed to be the ones I mistakenly thought the band was singing.

[sonic]

OK I promise not to delete this one after two minutes!
Bob
www.bdrak.com

Please don't. Thanks for your input. Awesome! Don't feel silly. I'm honored that some pros are contributing to this thread.

[B D]

but I also think that being able to get the original idea down as seamlessly as possible is good, not so much because it prohibits more development and improvement but that it allows the original inspiration to come through.

It's also good to not get lost in the infinite possibilities for any one particular piece. I've known and worked with otherwise great composers and songwriters who don't have a good sense of when to stop messing around with a piece they are working on, so it either never gets finished or it turns into a big frustrating mess for them. It's good to know when to say a piece is fine like it is, leave it and move on. That applies not only to writing the piece but the recording and mixing as well.

I have known composers who feel that they are always trying to write "the ultimate" or " the perfect" piece, or make the "definitive" album. I don't go for that idea myself, I prefer the idea that everything one does is "a part of the body of work" one will produce during one's lifetime. Each piece, each album is just a part, a record of somewhere you were along your path to who knows where, always learning, always evolving. I don't think there is a definitive "final destination" an artist gets to and then it's all over. Well, except for THE TOMB of course!

[B D]

When beats are dropped too many times to close the gap between melodic passages, the flow seesm stilted sometimes.

Of course. There is definitely a craft to that and one of those hard-to-describe things you just have a feel about. It's one of those things that stick out to me for some reason. How many times I've listened to a little section of piece I'm working on (my own or someone else's) because something about it bugs me and it doesn't feel right, and I realize it's just a matter of cutting out some (to me) superfluous beats or measures (or entire sections), and suddenly it all flows and the adrenalin does too. Pretty much anyone I've worked with can tell you about me cutting bits out of their tunes. First, the gasp of horror, then: "NO WAY you CAN'T do THAT! You CAN'T be SERIOU...oh yeah ok I see what you mean!" Of course I'm not always right about it 100% of the time but close enough!

Bob
www.bdrak.com

[Wisdomview]

I write through blocks. Continually coming up with ideas (some crap) until I hit upon something I like.

[JordanB87]

I have trouble, too. Basically, there are 100 different ways for something to come out and I can't bring myself to settle on one lol.

[fictionmusic]

It's also good to not get lost in the infinite possibilities for any one particular piece. I've known and worked with otherwise great composers and songwriters who don't have a good sense of when to stop messing around with a piece they are working on, so it either never gets finished or it turns into a big frustrating mess for them. It's good to know when to say a piece is fine like it is, leave it and move on. That applies not only to writing the piece but the recording and mixing as well.

I agree wholeheartedly. I remember talking to you about a mix I was doing several years back and I said that I kept changing it but not necessarily for the better. I thought all of them worked but revealed different aspects of the tune. You said something about once something was in the ballpark it might be a good idea to move on. I found that very wise advice.

I too agree everything is part of a body of work. That's why I don;t fret much when all of a sudden I write 4 or 5 pieces in a style I never did before. Not everything has to be suitable for a Prog album (thankfully).

[B D]

Something that used to intimidate me from even trying to write songs when I was younger was the way a finished/recorded/mixed song gives the impression that it just happened that way all at once. All the changes and harmonies, counterpoints, the bass part, all those details...as if it all just magically appeared in someone's head, complete. Once I started to meet and work with songwriters and composers I understood how it really works: you might have one little bit of chords/melody and no idea what to do with it for six months, and a whole collection of unfinished bits rolling around at any given time. The most important thing, unless you are some kind of rare prolific genius who does imagine complete pieces all at once (are there people like that?) is to make the time to sit down and play around with your ideas, see where they might "want" to go next. Also know that everyone has dry spells where you can't come up with anything, and other periods when things come easily.

[sonic]

Something that used to intimidate me from even trying to write songs when I was younger was the way a finished/recorded/mixed song gives the impression that it just happened that way all at once. All the changes and harmonies, counterpoints, the bass part, all those details...as if it all just magically appeared in someone's head, complete. Once I started to meet and work with songwriters and composers I understood how it really works: you might have one little bit of chords/melody and no idea what to do with it for six months, and a whole collection of unfinished bits rolling around at any given time. The most important thing, unless you are some kind of rare prolific genius who does imagine complete pieces all at once (are there people like that?) is to make the time to sit down and play around with your ideas, see where they might "want" to go next. Also know that everyone has dry spells where you can't come up with anything, and other periods when things come easily.

That's good advise and is precisely my problem. I have bits and pieces of unfinished works and was unsatisfied because I felt I should complete one before I started another and end up with nothing. It's nice to know that is just part of the process even for working musicians/composers.

[B D]

I agree wholeheartedly. I remember talking to you about a mix I was doing several years back and I said that I kept changing it but not necessarily for the better. I thought all of them worked but revealed different aspects of the tune. You said something about once something was in the ballpark it might be a good idea to move on. I found that very wise advice.

The way I see it, there are indeed a million ways to mix a tune and they will all be good. I've met other engineers or artists who disagree and imagine there is only one "right" way to mix it, and they have to search for that. Either approach works as long as you trust yourself when you listen to it and think "this sounds great, no reason to mess around with it!" I don't even need to think twice about it when I get that feeling.

Some people get lost in mixing when they look at it more as some kind of sound design project rather than a song.

[fictionmusic]

Something that used to intimidate me from even trying to write songs when I was younger was the way a finished/recorded/mixed song gives the impression that it just happened that way all at once. All the changes and harmonies, counterpoints, the bass part, all those details...as if it all just magically appeared in someone's head, complete. Once I started to meet and work with songwriters and composers I understood how it really works: you might have one little bit of chords/melody and no idea what to do with it for six months, and a whole collection of unfinished bits rolling around at any given time. The most important thing, unless you are some kind of rare prolific genius who does imagine complete pieces all at once (are there people like that?) is to make the time to sit down and play around with your ideas, see where they might "want" to go next. Also know that everyone has dry spells where you can't come up with anything, and other periods when things come easily.

I know eactly what you mean. Often I have snippets of pieces in my mind for years before they develop into something usable. I have hours of snippets of tunes that may or may not get polished. Often I need to figure out just what attrcted me to an idea in the first place and spend some time playing with it before it turns into something worthwhile, but, and I am not saying I am a rare prolific genius (prolific certainly) often I do hear a whole piece totally in my mind. Orchestral music, big band jazz, weird-ass rock...some of that stuff comes to me wholly formed and I can hear the voicings and orchestrations entirely within. I can hear how many basses are playing and if the cellos are doubling it up an octave, what kind of woods etc. The problem is getting it all down before I forget. That's why I advise writing with just paper and pencil at times; you won't lose that magic appearance of a wholly formed tune. Of course not everything I write is like that (far from it) but I can honestly say a lgood chunk of it is. Like I mentioned earlier, I am scoring a piece called Shadow Over Innsmouth right now and it all came to me when I was trying to take a nap. It'll change before I am through, but I have already run it down several times in my head and know exactly what's going on.

I think anyone can do this. Most people can play back a song they've listened to over and over again, and even if they don't know what everything is called or how to actually play it, they can hear all the subtle nuances in their head (and even things like the right key). This I think is the same thing. Intuition is a powerful thing.

Of course this doesn't mean the piece is any good or startlingly original, in fact it often can be a mish-mash of other pieces all floating around up there.

[Mikhael]

One thing I'd like to reiterate is working WITH someone on compositions. I have a knack for taking someone's snippets, and writing logical connecting parts to arrange them into a coherent piece. I also turn to my buddy (the keyboardist from my old prog band "Gambit") when I get stuck, and he comes up with weird shit I would never have thought of, that somehow fits.

[fictionmusic]

One thing I'd like to reiterate is working WITH someone on compositions. I have a knack for taking someone's snippets, and writing logical connecting parts to arrange them into a coherent piece. I also turn to my buddy (the keyboardist from my old prog band "Gambit") when I get stuck, and he comes up with weird shit I would never have thought of, that somehow fits.

I envy you that! I have a hard time working with others at that level of creation. My cousin and I used to write jazz pieces that way, but almost everytime I work with somebody else, neither of us is as happy with the result as we would be doing it alone. The only time i have had success is when I give someone else some little ditty I care little about. When they are done it is exciting to hear at first, but there is always that part that dis-satisfied me in the first place niggling away.

I have better results learning their pieces and contributing my part to it or my interpertation of their existing part. That seems to fly and doesn't disturb the delicate autonomy so many songwriters prefer. I have orchestrated quite a bit of music in my day and THAT is probably the best way I can work with someone. Their form and melody and then my countermelodies and harmonies and instrument choices. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of work in that field these days given the necessary budget to get a recorded version.

[Rarebird]

One thing I'd like to reiterate is working WITH someone on compositions. I have a knack for taking someone's snippets, and writing logical connecting parts to arrange them into a coherent piece. I also turn to my buddy (the keyboardist from my old prog band "Gambit") when I get stuck, and he comes up with weird shit I would never have thought of, that somehow fits.

I used to work with a guy in Germany. I send him midi-files of completed, or incomplete compositions and he reworked those into new stuff. His working-pace was a lot quicker than my own, so this came to an end.

[Yodelgoat]

My problems with lyrics stem from some songs I wrote in the 80's - for some reason,they sounded cool back then, but now they make me want to hurl. So now I write them with the idea of impressing myself 20 years from now. It worked rather well on my 2005 CD, but it hasnt since then. I can still listen to that CD and feel good about what I did. Musically and lyrically, its decent. Now I try to live up to the future me when I write music. Thats probably why I havent finished a song in 8 years. Perhaps I'm waiting to come up with something I wont be embarrassed by later. Perhaps thats the point. I'm never going to release another tune until I know that I'll never be able to improve it. - which implies that I may go to my grave trying to impress myself. I guess I dont see anything wrong with that.

The only issue I have with the 2005 CD is that I used sampled drums. If I could do it again, I would have used real acoustic drums. I guess I released the CD too early, because I'd have it done now with real drums.

When it comes down to it, I am really the only person who still listens to that CD (maybe once a year). Does it make sense that I should be the person I'm trying to impress? Anyone else wish they could have a composition back to re-release it as it should be?

[sonic]

Perhaps I'm waiting to come up with something I wont be embarrassed by later. Perhaps thats the point. I'm never going to release another tune until I know that I'll never be able to improve it. - which implies that I may go to my grave trying to impress myself. I guess I dont see anything wrong with that.

I wouldn't worry about it. You're not getting any younger and seeing as the 'future you' will eventually just be a bunch of bones in a crate I think you'll have a hard time pleasing him no matter what you do. As long as you're having fun now, right?

[Yodelgoat]

I wouldn't worry about it. You're not getting any younger and seeing as the 'future you' will eventually just be a bunch of bones in a crate I think you'll have a hard time pleasing him no matter what you do. As long as you're having fun now, right?

Yep, I'm having a blast! I think the process of creating music is by far the most rewarding experience of any part of the music "trade".

[fictionmusic]

I wouldn't worry about it. You're not getting any younger and seeing as the 'future you' will eventually just be a bunch of bones in a crate I think you'll have a hard time pleasing him no matter what you do. As long as you're having fun now, right?

In my experienec, the stuff we take for granted about ourselves is the stuff that makes listening to old material fun. I have lots of pieces that used Korg M1 drum samples and I have come to hate the sound (I never changed any of the sample so it was completely stock). Of course when I first started using sequencers and samplers I was overjoyed to have that capability and went through a creative period. Later I came to almost detest the patches I created and sounds I used. Even later though I listened to it again and I liked the songs and the playing and even some of the production. Sure it sounds dated; almost anything does, but it had alot more internal intergrity and was far more interesting than I thought.

As far as lyrics go, i have similar experiences. Well actually mostly with poetry that I wrote. When I was young I thought clever word play and a large vocabulary was everything. Everything was a story and a journey. I look at that stuff and laugh now. Similarly I wrote direct and heart on your sleeve stuff after becoming a big fan of author Robertson Davis and a vocalist I worked with. I felt like going back and changing all the early stuff with that approach. Now I am on another tack (more confessional I guess but less direct) and realize I wouldn't change a thing. Everything is representative of how I felt. I forgive myself my youth and my pretensions and like Bob has so eloquently stated, everything is of a body of work and not anyone piece has to be the all-time pinnacle of muse.

[Jefferson James]

Train those ears

This is a cool resource for some bonehead rock-n-roll ear training (I'm not saying Bryan Beller is a bonehead; far from it!)

http://www.bryanbeller.com/cms/index...C5perfectpitch

imagine complete pieces all at once (are there people like that?)

I wish I could do this all the time 'cause there have been moments where some seriously fun stuff has been spinning in my brain, start-to-finish, and of course it's too weird to remember completely. I'm happy if I can remember the main riff or melody.

I went camping at the beach a few years ago and this song came to me all at once: lyrics, melody and music. I stayed up late that night, alone, repeating the song over and over, tweaking it, hoping to remember it the next day. I did remember it, and it was probably two years later when I finally got around to actually learning it and demo-ing it.

This is a crappy home demo of the song:

https://soundcloud.com/kerry-kompost...chicoine-storm

Another time I wrote a song in the car over a week of driving; again CRAPPY HOME DEMO ALERT:

https://soundcloud.com/kerry-kompost...ne-coming-down

taking someone's snippets, and writing logical connecting parts to arrange them into a coherent piece.

I love doing that! In my old band, that was my primary role: take the various ideas and form 'em into something resembling a song. There's a freedom that comes from working with segments and ideas that aren't my own and I love working this way. My favorite thing was writing the music that bound the various ideas together; coming up with transitions, intros, outros, whatever was needed.

As for the topic and my own experiences, I've gone thru phases where I pick up an instrument and kind of force myself to write a song, or I will hear a song in my head and try to learn it (doesn't always work).

But by far the most fun and productive approach has been to pick up an instrument, hit record, and just start playing. Anything. Whatever comes out. Don't think. Be. Then, later, re-listen and pick out the parts you like and build a piece from there.

Very interesting thread! I can't read enough about writing music.

[fictionmusic]

Cool stuff Kerry. I love it when people post actual examples of what they mean. It's Coming Down Rain has a very groovt XTC vibe to it; I love it.


Kerry said "I wish I could do this all the time 'cause there have been moments where some seriously fun stuff has been spinning in my brain, start-to-finish, and of course it's too weird to remember completely. I'm happy if I can remember the main riff or melody."

The more I think of it, the stuff that usually comes to me wholly formed (or mostly formed would be a better description) Is stuff that I would write with paper and pencil in the first place (mostly classical and arranged jazz). Maybe it is a comfort in the process.

BTW Kerry, that next Soundcloud piece "Last gasp" is killer.

[B D]

But by far the most fun and productive approach has been to pick up an instrument, hit record, and just start playing. Anything. Whatever comes out. Don't think. Be. Then, later, re-listen and pick out the parts you like and build a piece from there.

I used to do exactly that, the songs on my first 3 or 4 solo albums started that way. Plug a guitar right into the cassette deck and fill the entire 30 or 45 or 90 minutes with whatever happened, no plan, no thinking about it. Sometime later I'd listen and out of the hour of plinky, clumsy rubbish there would always be a couple of things that grabbed my ears so I'd stop the tape and figure out what I'd played, and a song would evolve from there. This worked well for me because I used to spend an hour or two every single day drawing (look here if you're curious: http://www.bdrak.com/art/art.htm ) sitting at the drawing table in a kind of energized receptive mood, so that was also a time I could listen to those random cassettes. (drawing is one of the few things I can do at the same time as listening to music) But I lost the interest to draw back around 2000, so that way of composing also changed. For the past several years (started with The Skull Mailbox album) how it generally works is to sit down with an instrument and "just start playing anything", and as soon as there is one thing that gives me that little spark, I record it, however crudely and stilted, on a little portable recorder so I won't forget it, then stick with that little idea and figure out where it wants to go, refine it until I've either come up with an outline for a whole song, or at least solidified the first little idea into something that could be a good part of a piece. It was also during the writing phase for Skull Mailbox that I started coming with songtitles I liked and made songs to fit. Maybe 1/4 of my songs since the year 2000 started that way, just a title! It's a way of planting a little seed I suppose, to help give a starting point.

For those who have trouble coming up with or completing ideas: I probably keep saying the same thing over and over - don't imagine you have to come up with some monumental, complete composition full of details and changes with good lyrics out of thin air all at once. Most of us, especially me, can't! It doesn't matter if you are writing long, epic pieces or 2-minute pop tunes, for example my friend Mike Johnson, who writes the Thinking Plague stuff always starts out with something as simple as one little phrase, maybe a few seconds long. When we used to work together he'd show me some idea, a little snippet, and say "I've got this thing, and this other thing, but don't know how to get from one to the other" and we'd work something out. (Mike and I work together exceptionally well that way, and plan to do something together again one of these years!)

A little recording device is essential, doesn't matter how crappy it might sound, just to put the ideas down (for those of us who don't know musical notation) because when they are so fresh they are so easily forgotten! And a little multitrack cassette or something like the Zoom H4n are even better.

If you write on the guitar, try a different tuning. Not just the common ones like drop D or an open major chord, try tuning a couple strings down a half step, another down a whole step, leave one alone, another up a half, and hit a few chords...It's incredible how quickly that can set off some sparks of ideas. Just make sure you make a note of the tuning, so you can re-create it later. I don't know how many ideas I had to give up on because I forgot to make a note of the funny tuning and could never figure it out again!

BD
www.bdrak.com

[B D]

When beats are dropped too many times to close the gap between melodic passages, the flow seesm stilted sometimes.

It's not just a matter of chopping beats out for no apparent reason (though that can be fine too) I only do it when feel the piece is being slowed or dragged down by beats that serve no purpose in being there. A good example where it works (in my very humble opinion, hahah) in one of my songs is the guitar melody in the first section of "Sunny Day in Nairobi", listening to it you might not notice all the measures in that part are different (some are 3 beats, some 4, some 5...I never counted it until you guys were here learning it for the live album and were remarking upon it

Because it's a recent song I can clearly remember writing it, sitting on the porch strumming the chords and singing that melody, and noticing there were moments where the melody had to wait too long to get going again, it felt needlessly broken up just because this or that chord was strummed one or two times too many. So right away I left off a few beats here and there so the melody could flow smoothly.
PS: I'll post the part of the song later for those who haven't heard it.

So yes of course it's only for musical reasons, needless to say!

[fictionmusic]

It's not just a matter of chopping beats out for no apparent reason (though that can be fine too) I only do it when feel the piece is being slowed or dragged down by beats that serve no purpose in being there. A good example where it works (in my very humble opinion, hahah) in one of my songs is the guitar melody in the first section of "Sunny Day in Nairobi", listening to it you might not notice all the measures in that part are different (some are 3 beats, some 4, some 5...I never counted it until you guys were here learning it for the live album and were remarking upon it

Because it's a recent song I can clearly remember writing it, sitting on the porch strumming the chords and singing that melody, and noticing there were moments where the melody had to wait too long to get going again, it felt needlessly broken up just because this or that chord was strummed one or two times too many.
PS: I'll post the part of the song later for those who haven't heard it.

So yes of course it's only for musical reasons, needless to say!

I totally agree Bob. I wasn't thinking of your tunes or approach at all rather thining of working with vocalists who drop beats just to get to their next vocal phrase. And even that isn't so much a compositional consideration as it is a revulsion of the American Idol approach to music where everything is about the golden throat and the musicians are of little consequence; tunes are constantly being truncated to keep just the parts where the golden throats get their due. I find people are expecting mixes where the vocals are way louder than the band to the point that when the vocals drop out the song sounds like it has lost all steam.

yes and please post the parts of your tune...in my opinion there is nothing better than musical examples...like Kerry, I love this stuff and that tune in particular!