Ok, what's so great about... Steely Dan?

[Jerjo]

The track "Royal Scam" must be played loud, the dynamics are wonderful.

[notallwhowander]

"Don't Take Me Alive" is among my favorite Steely Dan tracks.

[No Pride]

I think "Everything You Did" is an overlooked gem on The Royal Scam. I love Larry Carlton's snakey guitar solo on it!

[No Pride]

Fair enough. And to be clear, nothing I said was meant to suggest empirical "alls"; there are, indeed, world class players who plays standards, and for a number of reasons including (but not all):

1. As said by other(s), because it's an easy, truly common language for folks who don't want to worry about reading new, perhaps difficult, charts...
2. In the hands of world class players (and to be fair, certainly some aspiring/up-and-comers too), there's still plenty to mine in the Great American Songbook and jazz standards. Look at artists like Brad Mehldau and Fred Hersch, for example: they not only continue to bring certain standards into their albums and live shows, they reinvent them in very personal ways. Anyone who thinks standards are dead are mistaken; in the right hands, they can, indeed, be grist for some very unique interpretations that extent beyond soloing into arrangements, for example.

So, as ever, I'm not trying to present anything I've said as empiricals, for which there are not exceptions...as there are plenty. But one thing IS true - and this is at all levels of musicians, from aspiring, up-and-comers to top-tier: standards, while playing at times some part of what they do, is not as big a part of what they do, as was once the case. Standards still show up on albums by Mehldau, Bill Frisell, John Scofield and John Abercrombie, for example; but they don't dominate, more often than not, compared to say 30 years ago and then 50+.

In the '70s, most musicians reaching top-tier were more interested in original music. Ralph Towner, told me, in fact, at the time, that he was curious about why so many jazzers were playing standards. Paraphrasing him, he said "When we needed to make money we took lounge gigs, weddings, whatever, where we largely played standards; but when we wanted to really make music, we got together and worked on original material. We may not have been able to gig it much, but that was the focus of our efforts."

Hope this clarifies; in a nutshell, neither is anyone completely right (including me), nor are they completely incorrect. A ever, it's never quite that simple.

All good! Actually, I think the second half of the '50s through the '60s was when jazz musicians really blossomed as composers. Bebop was mostly new melodies written over chord progressions from either blues, rhythm changes or GAS tunes, but from Ellington to Monk and on, they were building compositions from the ground up, with chord progressions as original and unique as the melodies. So many jazz musicians became great composers; Shorter, Mingus, Hancock, Henderson, Dorham, Trane, Hubbard, Golson, Hill, Nelson... the list goes on and on.

[Zeuhlmate]

All good! Actually, I think the second half of the '50s through the '60s was when jazz musicians really blossomed as composers. Bebop was mostly new melodies written over chord progressions from either blues, rhythm changes or GAS tunes, but from Ellington to Monk and on, they were building compositions from the ground up, with chord progressions as original and unique as the melodies.

Which partly also explains why proggers of the 60'ies-70'ties have a more long lasting quality. Thye were inspired by folk, classical, jazz, blues, other cultures - not other progbands.

[No Pride]

Which partly also explains why proggers of the 60'ies-70'ties have a more long lasting quality. Thye were inspired by folk, classical, jazz, blues, other cultures - not other progbands.

Roger that!

[Guitarplyrjvb]

A question about Larry Carlton: Where, on his solo output or collaborations, can one find similar playing to that which he does with Steely Dan?

[alucard]

A question about Larry Carlton: Where, on his solo output or collaborations, can one find similar playing to that which he does with Steely Dan?

Among my personal favorites would be his playing on Donald Fagens first solo record Night fly and Joni Mitchell s Court& Spark and Hissing Of The Summer Lawns

[Guitarplyrjvb]

^^ Love his playing with Joni, but that's more graceful accompaniement. I guess I mean similar in a stylistic way to his Steely playing.

[jkelman]

Just gave Royal Scan a fresh listen. To me, this is an album that starts really strong and tails off at the end. The last three songs are just so-so, imo, and The Fez is cute, but isn't exactly a masterpiece. Green Earrings is awesome, though. To me, this is a bit of a dip in quality before their masterpiece. But you can hear a lot of the sophistication of Aja previewed on this album, and when it works, it's every bit as good. Just not as consistent to my ears. I still prefer Katy Lied, which really delivers on every song for me.

Bill

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The closing tracks, in particular, the title track, are some of my favourite Dan. For me, Royal Scam is the Dan's most perfect album, without any weak spots. I LOVE Aja and Gaucho, but each has tracks I'm less fond of (Deacon Blues on Aja; Hey Nineteen on Gaucho).

I also don't understand the apparent lack of love for Two Against Nature. Clearly informed by Fagen's solo work, it was still an album that said Steely Dan was back while, at the same time, being thoroughly contemporary and not at all retro.

It's one of my favourite Dan albums, along with the tryptich of Royal Scam, Aja & Gaucho.

[jkelman]

Among my personal favorites would be his playing on Donald Fagens first solo record Night fly and Joni Mitchell s Court& Spark and Hissing Of The Summer Lawns

Also, while instrumental, his work with The Crusaders, in particular Those Southern Knights (his solo on the opening "Spiral" remains career defining for me) and the following Free as the Wind.

[Sputnik]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The closing tracks, in particular, the title track, are some of my favourite Dan. For me, Royal Scam is the Dan's most perfect album, without any weak spots. I LOVE Aja and Gaucho, but each has tracks I'm less fond of (Deacon Blues on Aja; Hey Nineteen on Gaucho).

That's cool, tastes differ. I also love Deacon Blues and Hey Nineteen so we obviously diverge at some point on the curve.

I also don't understand the apparent lack of love for Two Against Nature. Clearly informed by Fagen's solo work, it was still an album that said Steely Dan was back while, at the same time, being thoroughly contemporary and not at all retro.

I really tried with this one, but it never clicked with me. My wife liked it better than I did, but we still agreed it wasn't worth keeping. Maybe I'll sample it again. It just seemed way too straightforward to me. None of the slinky rhythms and those seemingly out of nowhere chord changes that somehow magically resolve. It just didn't have the magic of the 70s stuff to me, and felt really bland. We saw SD in concert around the time this came out and heard some of these songs played live, and that didn't help much either. Too bad, I'd have loved to have loved it.

Bill

[Polypet]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The closing tracks, in particular, the title track, are some of my favourite Dan. For me, Royal Scam is the Dan's most perfect album, without any weak spots. I LOVE Aja and Gaucho, but each has tracks I'm less fond of (Deacon Blues on Aja; Hey Nineteen on Gaucho).

I also don't understand the apparent lack of love for Two Against Nature. Clearly informed by Fagen's solo work, it was still an album that said Steely Dan was back while, at the same time, being thoroughly contemporary and not at all retro.

It's one of my favourite Dan albums, along with the tryptich of Royal Scam, Aja & Gaucho.

Oh, absolutely - to my ears, both of the later albums are quite excellent and worthy modern Dan pieces. There are real gems on both

And a shout out to Walter's two albums which both also have gems on...

[ZEPPELIN4EVER]

Morph the Cat to me is way better than any of the post 1970's releases by Steely Dan or any other post Night Fly solo efforts. To me it captures the Dan sound and is hard to tell its not a group effort ....

[3LockBox]

I couldn't warm up to Fagen's last two solo efforts. I do love Kamakiriad though.

[Dave]

I also don't understand the apparent lack of love for Two Against Nature. Clearly informed by Fagen's solo work, it was still an album that said Steely Dan was back while, at the same time, being thoroughly contemporary and not at all retro.

I think Jack Of Speed is one their best and the rest of the disc is great also.

[Jerjo]

Anyone ever hear the bonus disc (now OOP) of Fagen's box set? There were some unreleased gems on there.

[alucard]

I couldn't warm up to Fagen's last two solo efforts. I do love Kamakiriad though.

You should give 'Morph The Cat' another spin, great tracks 'Security Joan' would be my favorite. 'Sunken Condos ' à bit less interesting but still a very good record IMO

[proggy_jazzer]

Love 'Morph'. If I have one complaint about DF's last two it's that he's been relying too heavily on the long instrumental fade endings. It's great when there's some burning soloing going on over the top (see Steve Gadd, Chris Potter, any number of guitarists), but there are a few where it's just the groove. Good as that can be (see 'Brite Nightgown'), it tends to feel a little like the easy way out. It's a small nit to pick, though. 'The Great Pagoda of Funn' is a personal favorite.

[JKL2000]

I keep hearing Do It Again on the radio and thinking it's the Alan Parsons Project.

[Sputnik]

My band played Don't Take Me Alive today for the first time. Not bad for a first pass, if I do say so myself! I had to transpose it to Am, Fagan sings deceptively high. The added benefit of this is that the guitarist can finger that opening chord more easily, being and E instead of G. We need to polish it up a bit and work on that middle section, but I think this song will work for us and will be a tasty morsel for audiences.

One think I've been impressed with is Becker's bass playing. Great feel and great tone. Lot's going on but it never gets distracting. I may go back over some of those early albums and focus on the bass playing, something I've never really done.

Bill

[Obscured]

One think I've been impressed with is Becker's bass playing. Great feel and great tone. Lot's going on but it never gets distracting. I may go back over some of those early albums and focus on the bass playing, something I've never really done.

Interesting that he hasn't played bass live. At least in the last 25 years+ since SD started touring again. Rhythm and second lead. Reminds me of Jerry Garcia especially when they play "Home At Last" or "Aja". I hear similarities of other guitarists too. Becker is quite underrated as a musician.

[Guitarplyrjvb]

Becker's a great guitarist, too!

[Baribrotzer]

Becker is quite underrated as a musician.

Really, they're both quite underrated, and for the same reason: They're perfectionists. They don't settle for their own efforts when they can hire first-call sessionmen, and have gotten so much in the habit of doing so, filling their band with people like Jim Beard and Tom Barney, that you don't always notice they can actually hang in that company. But do you think Fagen would play Rhodes or Becker play guitar for one second, if they couldn't play those songs just as accurately as that band of monster players? And they certainly can.

Also, one thing that just hit me: SD's more recent material has been simpler than the older stuff - mostly jazz-oriented variations on the blues, instead of the ingenious nonstop modulations of "Turn that Heartbeat Over Again", or an extended structure like "Aja". Quite a few people have commented on this. I wonder if maybe that's so Becker can solo on it with less risk of not making the changes. Jon Herington could probably kill on "Giant Steps", but Becker, perhaps not so much - and no matter what kind of hip turnaround a blues-based tune might have, a soloist can always default to blues licks in the right key.

[the winter tree]

There's a song called "King of the World" , if memory serves me, on one of their earlier albums that was really great and progrockish in their own way.