Lifeson confirms Rush break up, will not reunite again.

[GuitarGeek]

So what are the good guitar synths these days? I imagine they have figured out the bugs and its a no - brainer these days?

Well, they've worked out the tracking, the problem is, or was about 10 years ago, is that Roland had very limited editing options for the synth engine. In fact, I think they were effectively samplers, not proper synths. But I played one at Sam Ash Music once, no matter what I did, in terms of sloppy playing, things like pick slides, chiming the strings behind the nut, etc, the thing had no trouble tracking any of it.

Now, what I understand is, the MIDI out on these things is still perceptibly slow. So if you wanted to hook up to a good MIDI synth, you're still going to have the delay between when you strike the string and you actually hear the sound come out of your synth. I guess that isn't as bad as it used to be, but from what I gather, it's still there.

The best guitar synth setups, actually, I guess, are dedicated MIDI controllers that look and operate like guitars, but aren't guitars themselves. I mentioned the Touch synth from the early 80's and the Synthaxe, and there have been other ones, too.

I remember there was one in the late 80's that used some kind of light sensing thingamabobber, you strung the guitar with all high E strings (actually, I guess you could put whatever you wanted on it, in terms of strings, but like the Synthaxe, I gather most people who did use it used high E strings, just for the ease of play), and supposedly the tracking was top notch. I believe it was called the Photon, and I think it's what Carlos Alomar used for his Dream Generator album (where the majority of the synth parts were triggered from his MIDI guitar rig). I imagine that kind of thing has been developed further since then. The only thing is, like with the Synthaxe, it's not a conventional guitar, you can't flip a switch and suddenly get regular guitar sounds, unless you're using a sampler.

For my interests, synths are a hands on thing, ie it involves a lot of twiddling of knobs and flipping of switches and pushing of buttons. Hence, a guitar synth, to me, kinda limits what one can do in that regard. That's why I have a modular synth.

Still, there's a part of me that still wants a GR-300 and GR-700, with a Lake Placid Blue G-505 (or one of the other Strat-like guitars that came out in the mid 80's, with the Roland electronics in them...actually, come to think of it, I always coveted Steve Hackett's blue Schecter that he used with his guitar synths, it's the guitar he's playing in the When The Heart Rules The Mind video).

[yamishogun]

aargh!

Well, I tried to make it shorter...

[Yodelgoat]

Just saw the Fishman, and it looks pretty good. I think it might work for me, load it on to my Taylor T5. I use Keys in music just mostly for filler and strings and stuff like that.

[hFx]

So what are the good guitar synths these days? I imagine they have figured out the bugs and its a no - brainer these days?

For live use, Roland still make some good MIDI-converters that utilize hex pickups. However, for DAW and studio, try the Jam Origin MIDI-guitar 2 software, which track any guitar (even acoustics) with full polyphony.

http://www.jamorigin.com/

[Steve983]

Rush may be over but check out Xanadu played by a small orchestra!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2xm...st=WL&index=14

[Skullhead]

But the truth about those early guitar synths is, most of them were duds.

They are still all duds.

[Facelift]

Now, what I understand is, the MIDI out on these things is still perceptibly slow. So if you wanted to hook up to a good MIDI synth, you're still going to have the delay between when you strike the string and you actually hear the sound come out of your synth. I guess that isn't as bad as it used to be, but from what I gather, it's still there.

Really? That seems unpossible, with today's technology. Maybe instead of launching sedans into space, Elon Musk should work on fixing this.

[N_Singh]

Some people are hedging their bets on the Axe FX three to see if it first has polyphonic MIDI.

If you don’t know what the Axe FX 2 is, Bob finally has two of them in his solar voyager or whatever the hell it’s called these days.

[GuitarGeek]

Some people are hedging their bets on the Axe FX three to see if it first has polyphonic MIDI.

If you don’t know what the Axe FX 2 is, Bob finally has two of them in his solar voyager or whatever the hell it’s called these days.

If by "Bob" you mean "Chuckles", yes, the tour program for the most recent King Crimson mentions he's a couple of Axe FX 2 units. Quite a few guitarists have been using the Axe FX units since they first came out. The only thing is, I believe they're extremely expensive.

[jamesmanzi]

So what are the good guitar synths these days? I imagine they have figured out the bugs and its a no - brainer these days?

I played with a GR-55 for about a year and a half. Never really warmed to the whole midi thing, although it did track flawlessly. Just could never get used to triggering sounds rather than playing them.

I traded it in last year and picked up a a Boss SY-300 analogue guitar synth and I'm infinitely happier. Still have a GK-3 midi pickup on one of my guitars - one thing I did like about the GR-55 was the modeling application, and while I wouldn't get another synth, I'll probably pick up one of these someday when I have all the money:

https://www.roland.com/us/products/vg-99/

[jamesmanzi]

re: Alex and guitar synths,

He mentioned a guitar synth he tried, which from the description, sounded like something called The Touch, which wasn't a conventional guitar, but it had sensors in the fingerboard that detected the fretting hands movements, and you had six bars that you touched with the picking hand. I guess it was sort of like an early version of what was later done with things like the Synthaxe and some of the other systems that were designed to get around the pitfalls of using a regular guitar to trigger synthesizers. .

Funny, that was probably state of the art in the 70's. This toy cost me around two hundred bucks ten years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/You-Rock-Guit.../dp/B003DC78FW

A midi controller that works as described above (sensors on the fake fretboard), that apparently doubles as a Guitar Hero and Rock Band controller (I've never tried).

If you want to just plug and play thru a DAW with a guitar instead of a keyboard, this will do the trick. Trying to play it like a conventional guitar is much like playing any other guitar if that other guitar was actually a live salmon, but put it in tap mode and it works pretty well as a controller. The biggest challenge with this thing is navigating their website, which is perpetually slow and or under maintenance.

[Jerjo]

If by "Bob" you mean "Chuckles", yes, the tour program for the most recent King Crimson mentions he's a couple of Axe FX 2 units. Quite a few guitarists have been using the Axe FX units since they first came out. The only thing is, I believe they're extremely expensive.

Does this mean that Sir Chuckles isn't "true prog"?

[progholio]

^ Interesting stuff!

The other interesting point is guitar synth technology evolved to the point where it can track flawlessly and synth patches sound pretty damn cool yet Lifeson stayed the f'ck away from it all once the novelty wore off.
Still hard to beat the Les Paul in a Marshall.

[hFx]

I played with a GR-55 for about a year and a half. Never really warmed to the whole midi thing, although it did track flawlessly. Just could never get used to triggering sounds rather than playing them.

I traded it in last year and picked up a a Boss SY-300 analogue guitar synth and I'm infinitely happier. Still have a GK-3 midi pickup on one of my guitars - one thing I did like about the GR-55 was the modeling application, and while I wouldn't get another synth, I'll probably pick up one of these someday when I have all the money:

https://www.roland.com/us/products/vg-99/

I got a VG-99, though tucked away since I started using the Jam Origin plugin The modelling is OK, but not that revolutionary any more, though the acoustics are still decent. I was a bit disappointed that the synth possibilities are quite limited, though Michael Holmes used it quite a lot up until recently. As a synth, there was more fun using the GR-300.

[GuitarGeek]

The other interesting point is guitar synth technology evolved to the point where it can track flawlessly and synth patches sound pretty damn cool yet Lifeson stayed the f'ck away from it all once the novelty wore off.

Actually, he stayed away from them even before the novelty wore off. I would reckon the "novelty" era ran from the late 70's (when the Avatar, the GR-500, the 360 Systems instruments, etc came out) all the way up to the late 80's.

And he actually wasn't alone. I remember Eddie Van Halen being asked why he didn't use a guitar synth, during that time he was playing more and more keyboards, and he basically said he didn't like having to change his playing style and he didn't like "playing their guitar" (this being during the era before Roland figured out there might have been a reason why 360 Systems and ARP made hex pickups back in the late 70's that could be installed on a guitar with minimal surgery).

Still hard to beat the Les Paul in a Marshall.

Not that hard. Swap out the Les Paul for a Strat, and boom, you're done. For that matter, replace the Marshall with a Vox AC-30 or a Fender Twin Reverb, Pro Reverb, or Super Reverb, and you've taken it even further.

How long has it been since Alex used Marshalls? I think he was using Hughes & Kettner amps when I saw them on the Vapor Trails tour, and from the concert videos they've put otu since then, he's stayed with them pretty consistently ever since. And he's used just about every guitar on the planet, from an ES-335 to Les Pauls to souped up Strats to PRS, etc.

As a synth, there was more fun using the GR-300.

The GR-300 always struck me as being a bit limited. It seems to me like whenever I hear one being used, there's basically like two patches I hear. One is a sort of brassy kind of sound, which is what Metheny, Fripp, Belew, and Hackett all seemed to use it for. And there's the filter sweep sound that Andy Summers used on Don't Stand So Close To Me (and I think it's Belew doing filter sweeps on The Sheltering Sky, too).

That was the real bummer about the GR-700, I thought: it had more variability, in terms of programming, but the tracking as apparently worse than the GR-300, even though it was theoretically "the next generation" or whatever.

[Yodelgoat]

I have been watching everything I can find on that Triple play, and by golly, I think its a winner for me. I do all my composing on guitar, and the way that seems to work, along with the patches it has great creative potential for me... Time to come up with $399!!!

I would think that Geddy would love something like that. He could actually do a LOT of triggering and playing synth parts on a bass - or have a 6 string doubleneck. Seems like that would be easier and more natural than keys. - but... He's been doing that key stuff for a ton of years. He is no rick wakeman, but he is a "rick wakeman" of bass.

The tracking is as good as anyone could hope for. But I take it the lower the string is tuned to, the slower the tracking would be right?

[GuitarGeek]

He is no rick wakeman,

Which is good. The world really only needs one Rick Wakeman. Personally, one of the things I like about Geddy's synth work is that he's not trying to outplay Wakeman, Emerson, etc. Same thing with Tony Banks.

[hFx]

The GR-300 always struck me as being a bit limited. It seems to me like whenever I hear one being used, there's basically like two patches I hear. One is a sort of brassy kind of sound, which is what Metheny, Fripp, Belew, and Hackett all seemed to use it for. And there's the filter sweep sound that Andy Summers used on Don't Stand So Close To Me (and I think it's Belew doing filter sweeps on The Sheltering Sky, too).

There are a few more variations using the filters and and VCA EGs, though it is limited compared to the the later guitar synths and even the GR-500 (which has a "real" synth engine). However, they made "that" lead sound used by so many very very playable! I feel that it's the only synth sound that gets you so close to actually feeling the instrument, like playing the guitar with a different sound. I think some of the solos played by Pat Metheny in live versions of "Are you going with me!" are among the most intense solos ever, regardless of instrument!

As a contrast, many of the later guitar synths, albeit better tracking, wider sound palette etc, create a great distance between the fingers and the sound. It's like the fretboard is reduced to an excuse for not playing a keyboard, rather than utilizing the possibilities.

That was the real bummer about the GR-700, I thought: it had more variability, in terms of programming, but the tracking as apparently worse than the GR-300, even though it was theoretically "the next generation" or whatever.

The GR700 could really have been something - the GR700 synth engine is equal to that of the Roland JX3-P keyboard. AFAIK the JX3-P is a spin-off from the GR design.

[GuitarGeek]

The GR700 could really have been something - the GR700 synth engine is equal to that of the Roland JX3-P keyboard. AFAIK the JX3-P is a spin-off from the GR design.

I'm not sure which came first, but you're basically right. There was also a rack unit, one of the MKS models, though I forget which one. I've heard it said that if you use a modern MIDI guitar converter, and plug into the MKS unit or a JX-3P, you get all the same sounds, but with better tracking than the GR-700. And I agree, it "could really have been something". I still say what must have happened was they rushed the thing out so that nobody else would have the opportunity to scoop them on the first MIDI guitar device on, without R&Ding it properly first. I mean, it should have at least tracked as well as the GR-300, which I've always heard it doesn't.

[kid_runningfox]

They are still all duds.

Simply not true. If you accept the limitations of the physics of pitch to voltage conversion (which basically guarantees that on low notes especially there will always be some degree of tracking delay), then modern guitar synthesizers are hugely capable instruments. I played around with a GR-50 a few years back, and was enormously impressed with its capabilities. However, i didn't buy one simply because I couldn't afford to do so at the time, and now that I can I'm reluctant to have one of those wart-like Roland hex-pickup adapters stuck on the front of any of my guitars. I suspect one of the issues with guitar synths is that many guitarists simply don't appreciate that once you start using synth sounds the guitar effectively becomes a different instrument, that needs to be approached as such. Simply expecting the synth to keep up with fast staccato picking when using a strings sound with a very slow attack time, for example, is always going to lead to problems, meaning that utilising sounds that go way beyond the guitarists' comfort zone requires a degree of thought and consequent change of approach to suit. Unfortunately, this seems to pass many guitar players by - leading to all of the usual complaints about guitar synths we regularly read.

Adapt to the instruments' idiosyncracies, however (as one must do with ALL musical instruments), and you're really just limited by your imagination; guitar synths have come an enormously long way since the days of the GR300/500, and it's simply false to argue that they're 'all duds' in 2018.

[Jerjo]

Adapt to the instruments' idiosyncracies, however (as one must do with ALL musical instruments), and you're really just limited by your imagination; guitar synths have come an enormously long way since the days of the GR300/500, and it's simply false to argue that they're 'all duds' in 2018.

But that is the sort of analysis that doesn't fit into the troll's narrative.

[Rarebird]

Adapt to the instruments' idiosyncracies, however (as one must do with ALL musical instruments), and you're really just limited by your imagination; guitar synths have come an enormously long way since the days of the GR300/500, and it's simply false to argue that they're 'all duds' in 2018.

Look for instance at the Mellotron, which also has its idiosyncracies, like only a certain note-lenght and some other things, but still the instrument is loved over simular kinds of instruments like the Birotron, or the sampler, which don't have these idiosyncracies.

[hFx]

I'm not sure which came first, but you're basically right.

Some info here...

http://www.roland.com/global/promos/...e/interview_2/

[ThomasKDye]

Look for instance at the Mellotron, which also has its idiosyncracies, like only a certain note-lenght and some other things, but still the instrument is loved over simular kinds of instruments like the Birotron, or the sampler, which don't have these idiosyncracies.

I think it's the sound, that sort of "analog-tape-string/choir" sound, that has more warmth for people than the more clinically accurate sample sounds. I read here about keyboards that sample mellotron sounds themselves so they can use them without the limitations. I think these days most people would use those just so they don't face the headaches their seventies forebears faced.

[Skullhead]

Simply not true. If you accept the limitations of the physics of pitch to voltage conversion (which basically guarantees that on low notes especially there will always be some degree of tracking delay), then modern guitar synthesizers are hugely capable instruments. I played around with a GR-50 a few years back, and was enormously impressed with its capabilities. However, i didn't buy one simply because I couldn't afford to do so at the time, and now that I can I'm reluctant to have one of those wart-like Roland hex-pickup adapters stuck on the front of any of my guitars. I suspect one of the issues with guitar synths is that many guitarists simply don't appreciate that once you start using synth sounds the guitar effectively becomes a different instrument, that needs to be approached as such. Simply expecting the synth to keep up with fast staccato picking when using a strings sound with a very slow attack time, for example, is always going to lead to problems, meaning that utilising sounds that go way beyond the guitarists' comfort zone requires a degree of thought and consequent change of approach to suit. Unfortunately, this seems to pass many guitar players by - leading to all of the usual complaints about guitar synths we regularly read.

Adapt to the instruments' idiosyncracies, however (as one must do with ALL musical instruments), and you're really just limited by your imagination; guitar synths have come an enormously long way since the days of the GR300/500, and it's simply false to argue that they're 'all duds' in 2018.

As far as accuracy, if you are arguing against delay, then can we also argue that sound takes time to travel through the air and that also takes time to reach our ears? Is that why front row seats cost more than 20 rows back? How about mic placement in the studio or even a live concert capture?

I agree that one must adapt to the instrument. But the bigger question is really, what is wrong with a guitar simply running through a few analog effects? Isn't there more there than anyone could explore in a lifetime with all the options and styles of technique and room for experimentation with the instrument itself? Are there really big advantages over just doing it all on a keyboard?