Dream Theater - What happened?

[MudShark22]

Oh no doubt losing Kevin M. was a huge blow. Half my top 10 DT tunz have Kev lyrics.

[JKL2000]

Yep. This is what I was saying earlier... I don't dispute Mangini's playing ability one iota. In fact when I watched a live DVD they put out a few years back, he was what I enjoyed watching the most. But when it comes to recording new albums, they lost something with MP. He was very involved with arrangements among other aspects. When you remove such a huge member of the band and the others have to pick up the slack with decisions they never had to make in the past, things change - and in this case, not for the better.

It’s notable how kind of boring some of the “making of” videos are because of the actual hard work they’re doing arranging studio albums. You can see how involved Portnoy was, and as talented as other members might be, that was a hard loss to survive. Too bad though that the last studio album WITH Portnoy wasn’t so great - that kind kept him from being able to say “see, I told ya!” Oh, well... That said, I still want to give the post Portnoy DT more of a shot than I have. Lord knows why.

[Progatron]

It’s notable how kind of boring some of the “making of” videos are because of the actual hard work they’re doing arranging studio albums. You can see how involved Portnoy was, and as talented as other members might be, that was a hard loss to survive. Too bad though that the last studio album WITH Portnoy wasn’t so great - that kind kept him from being able to say “see, I told ya!” Oh, well... That said, I still want to give the post Portnoy DT more of a shot than I have. Lord knows why.

While I agree that Black Clouds wasn't great (although I do like The Shattered Fortress), it's at least better than the three that have followed. But yes, it has its problems... like I said earlier, A Rite Of Passage is just awful. Wither is a nice enough ballad but is of such little consequence that it can't save the album. The opening and closing epic tracks are great musically but suffer from the aforementioned atrocious Petrucci lyrics (with Portnoy doing the heavy vocals: "By the grace of god above, everyone survived... HOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!" - ) and the annoying samples (that really, they always used too much of in their music anyway). When we are already hearing the vocalist sing "He said son, do you remember...", we don't need a sample of the doctor's voice immediately saying the same thing. There's no doubt the rot was setting in, and I think MP was right to suggest a short break to recharge the batteries. The band disagreed, and proceeded to produce the three worst albums in their catalogue IMO.

[Steve F.]

Saw them with Dixie Dregs during the Metropolis Pt. 2 tour and left after 20 minutes. Muddy noise.

9:30 Club show in the early-mid 90s? If so, I was there....

[markwoll]

9:30 Club show in the early-mid 90s? If so, I was there....

Yes, Dregs were great.

[Vic2012]

Never got into them. I tried. I had I and W. Got rid of it. Just didn't work for me.

[ytserush]

As a fanboy since DT opened for Marillion at The Ritz, DT fell off the cliff post 8vm.

I was at that show. Had When Dream And Day Unite before that show and had no idea they were opening for Marillion 11/14/89. Intended to by a Marillion shirt that night and walked out with a Dream Theater shirt instead.

To me a lot of the drive (at least in Portnoy's case) left after that incredible 20th Anniversary show at Radio City on April 1, 2006. There was really no where to go from there. It was an incredible evening but there was no way it could be topped.

They are still amazing live but for the most part they don't seem to want to move out of their comfort zone. I think they've been kind of "by-numbers" since Systematic Chaos (my least favorite album.) Generally, I'd like them to push the envelope more but that may not be something they want to focus on.

The Astonishing was different. I'd consider it a masterpiece if the lyrics were better. They should have taken more time with it.

The lyrics really haven't been a strong point in this band since Kevin Moore left but it's been Petrucci who is the weak link in the lyric department. He's written some really good lyrics but then there is stuff like The Count Of Tuscany and The Astonishing that come pretty close to torpedoing the music.

I think the Astonishing could have been huge...but those lyrics just kill me.

[regenerativemusic]

I liked Fates Warning but not many other more mainstream prog acts after the 90s. FW had just enough camp with their lyrics, reminded me of growing up on Long Island.

[kid_runningfox]

I was a huge fan boy for years, up until 6Degrees I think. Then they stated getting a little weird for me. And Ive bought almost everything they put out since then too, except that last thing they did. I'd fallen off them by then thank god. The last time I saw them was Systematic Chaos, I'm not sure why I went actually. Jones Beach. I was totally surprised at how good that show was. They kicked ass. I didn't even mind Portnoys oo oo look at me antics!
But eventually I wasn't into Portnoys cheesy black metal growls and their attempts at going that route. At first I laid the blame on Portnoy. I was stoked when Mangini came onboard because i think he can drum circles around almost anyone and thought he would bring some desperately needed new energy and dynamics to the band.
But alas hes played it too safe and has tried to stay true to what came before him and fit into the machine I think. I don't feel he's really brought anything new or the kind of energy I had hoped he would bring. ADOE was a horrible disappointment.
I think it's really more down to Petrucci, and he may have actually been more at "fault" than Portnoy. I'm not a fan of his playing. Fast, technical but devoid of any emotion to me ears. I think they all just fall in behind him. Rudess is an absolutely astonishing player, so is Myung, but in DT and it's all wankery following the Petrucci shred Fest.
When they first appeared they were a breath of fresh air to me. They've long since gone stale.

This is very similar to my own position on DT, but for me the writing was on the wall with Scenes From a Memory. Even though many DT fans hail it as the band's masterwork, for me it's a largely tuneless, rambling wankfest with crap lyrics and added showband and ragtime cheese from new recruit Jordan Rudess. They've essentially re-made the same album ever since with predictably diminishing returns. I genuinely hoped that Portnoy's departure would herald a change of approach, and indeed think that both of the first two Mangini albums are much better than anything DT had done since FII - you can even hear the bass on the eponymous album! The Astonishing, however, was only astonishing in just how much of a wrong move it was, and gives depressing confirmation of the extent to which Petrucci (especially) and Rudess have taken over the band entirely to its detriment. I suspect that until they work with an external producer again, however, things won't change. However, I really believe that the malaise goes much deeper than that - they've just become stagnant and possibly not a little complacent, and as long as their fanbase keeps lapping it up, why change the template? Shame how a band that I once loved could lose the plot so completely.

[Skullhead]

This is very similar to my own position on DT, but for me the writing was on the wall with Scenes From a Memory. Even though many DT fans hail it as the band's masterwork, for me it's a largely tuneless, rambling wankfest with crap lyrics and added showband and ragtime cheese from new recruit Jordan Rudess. They've essentially re-made the same album ever since with predictably diminishing returns. I genuinely hoped that Portnoy's departure would herald a change of approach, and indeed think that both of the first two Mangini albums are much better than anything DT had done since FII - you can even hear the bass on the eponymous album! The Astonishing, however, was only astonishing in just how much of a wrong move it was, and gives depressing confirmation of the extent to which Petrucci (especially) and Rudess have taken over the band entirely to its detriment. I suspect that until they work with an external producer again, however, things won't change. However, I really believe that the malaise goes much deeper than that - they've just become stagnant and possibly not a little complacent, and as long as their fanbase keeps lapping it up, why change the template? Shame how a band that I once loved could lose the plot so completely.

Why is DT considered a prog band? There is nothing prog about them at all. A complex metal band with 80's hair metal production at best.

[Zappyesque]

Why is DT considered a prog band? There is nothing prog about them at all. A complex metal band with 80's hair metal production at best.

??
I don't follow. Are we talking about the same band?

[iguana]

very succinctly put – all of the above. i have kept the first three DT albums but quickly got rid of all the others. “metropolis2” sent me into diaphragmatic hernia for all the wrong reasons. i'd say i jumped ship with kevin moore and, consequently, became a CHROMA KEY and OSI fan instead.

let me maintain that i still appreciate all of DT’s members individually as hideously talented musicians //slash// music fans who collectively have their heart in the right place – but they have become a largely unsubstantial musical cabaret act. a wildly successful one at that, therefore more power to them.

“octavarium” (the song) slays though.

[kid_runningfox]

Why is DT considered a prog band? There is nothing prog about them at all. A complex metal band with 80's hair metal production at best.

I never said they were and care less. What I do know is that at one time I LOVED their music and now I don't. What we and several others here are discussing is when and why it all went wrong, if we do indeed think that it did. How to define DT's music is potentially the subject for a whole 'nother thread. It is not, however, the topic of this one.

[Zappyesque]

This is very similar to my own position on DT, but for me the writing was on the wall with Scenes From a Memory. Even though many DT fans hail it as the band's masterwork, for me it's a largely tuneless, rambling wankfest with crap lyrics and added showband and ragtime cheese from new recruit Jordan Rudess. They've essentially re-made the same album ever since with predictably diminishing returns. I genuinely hoped that Portnoy's departure would herald a change of approach, and indeed think that both of the first two Mangini albums are much better than anything DT had done since FII - you can even hear the bass on the eponymous album! The Astonishing, however, was only astonishing in just how much of a wrong move it was, and gives depressing confirmation of the extent to which Petrucci (especially) and Rudess have taken over the band entirely to its detriment. I suspect that until they work with an external producer again, however, things won't change. However, I really believe that the malaise goes much deeper than that - they've just become stagnant and possibly not a little complacent, and as long as their fanbase keeps lapping it up, why change the template? Shame how a band that I once loved could lose the plot so completely.

Man am I happy not to be the only one who doesn't see the magic in SFAM. Always sounded like a mash-up of an album to me. Separate parts just roughly glued together. One of their worst ballads (THE) and even the tunes that do stick, take Fatal Tragedy for example, have too much random wankery...

[LeFrog]

Man am I happy not to be the only one who doesn't see the magic in SFAM. Always sounded like a mash-up of an album to me. Separate parts just roughly glued together. One of their worst ballads (THE) and even the tunes that do stick, take Fatal Tragedy for example, have too much random wankery...

I actually thought SFAM was generally considered their best album.

As someone who came to DT from prog rather than metal, I never liked the wankery but thought they could churn out some good melodies when they put their minds to it. Falling Into Infinity is my favourite album by them and that sums up where I'm coming from (I'd welcome more solos like Lines In The Sand from Petrucci).
But I thought SFAM was perhaps the best combination of the melodic side of FII with their usual wankery, and thought its popularity was due to the fact that it reconciled the band's two extremes better than any other album of theirs.

[yamishogun]

Man am I happy not to be the only one who doesn't see the magic in SFAM. Always sounded like a mash-up of an album to me. Separate parts just roughly glued together. One of their worst ballads (THE) and even the tunes that do stick, take Fatal Tragedy for example, have too much random wankery...

Exactly. As I kept listening beyond the second spin, I kept deleting songs until I was left with the opening and maybe the last 20 minutes of the album, so I eventually just listened to that third. The half of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence that I like is much better than the third from Scenes of a Memory

[DoubleDrummer]

I own all the DT music except the first two.
I find something to like in every one of their albums.................and, conversely, not everything is successful.
I agree the wankery can get old and overdone.
Kevin Moore was a big loss and I agree with the post above that gives kudos to OSI.
Portnoy is a unique talent and impossible to replace.................but Mangini is remarkable...............both awesome drummers.
The idea of bringing in a producer/different approach might be something needed soon.

Below is an excellent vid of MP showing some of his work with OSI.............this flick proves that a great drummer doesn't need a giant (show) kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZlV9dlL_rc

[DarthVander]

Like for many others, DT was kind of a gateway to prog for me, and I was massively into them in the late 90s. Loved Images and Words (though the production and LaBrie's oversinging makes it slightly less enjoyable these days), Awake (still really like it), and the SFAM was just an absolute masterpiece to me - still really like it now though don't listen to it too often. Surprised to hear some find it tuneless, as I find even the most wankery parts very memorable.

Six Degrees was probably my most highly anticipated album ever at the time, and it was a bit of a letdown (anything would have been at that point), but quite liked most of the first disc (still love Glass Prison and Blind Faith). The second I found almost unbearably cheesy.
After that every album held my attention less and less, also due to my tastes changing with time. Wasn't too keen on them seemingly making decisions by committee about musical direction (let's go Metallica/Pantera-style metal with ToT, "gothic" with Black Clouds etc.).
Finally gave up with Systematic Chaos as it just didn't seem to have anything of interest to me. Also lost interest in them as a live band, partly because of LaBrie being almost unlistenable to my ears.

Petrucci did use to be able to combine his formidable chops with melody and feeling but he just seemed to have lost interest in anything beyond technical workouts.

[Spiral]

Man am I happy not to be the only one who doesn't see the magic in SFAM. Always sounded like a mash-up of an album to me. Separate parts just roughly glued together.

That was one of its flaws, sure, though I never thought it was too incoherent (the story theme obviously helped tie it all together). I'd say it was also the point where they began drifting too far toward imitative pastiches. As I think someone said, the Moore years were when they found a great way to synthesize a bunch of elements and make it into their own fresh thing. When the band did their commentary on the Live Scenes DVD they actually pointed out some of the obvious homages--"we were thinking of Meshuggah here, that one's the Zappa section" etc--I remember shaking my head and thinking "well, that figures."

I actually thought SFAM was generally considered their best album. ... perhaps the best combination of the melodic side of FII with their usual wankery, and thought its popularity was due to the fact that it reconciled the band's two extremes better than any other album of theirs.

I don't know if there's an overall consensus, but I've always thought I&W was the best at balancing those extremes and Scenes erred too far on the side of technical/wanky stuff. Maybe I'm in the minority.

[Camelogue]

I listened to DT whilst I was in Progressive Limbo. I hadn't heard a lot of my undiscovered bands from the 70's or the more modern takes on progressive rock. Once I did, I realized I really didn't care for DT at all.

[TheLongshot]

As someone who I followed since the early days (at least I&W), and was a part of my early prog awakening, I have a view on all of this.

I think Kevin Moore was their best songwriter, and songwriting has been a mixed bag since. I think the definitely lost something when MP left tho that isn't as obvious. The albums since have been solid, but also not particularly memorable.

I think their writing inconsistencies make concept albums a mixed bag for them. I also don't think SFAM is all that either, and feature some really awkward and a bit too on the nose lyrics. Something like The Astonishing was really a bad idea, particularly since it was hard for any song to stand out. I think they do better at the 12-15 minute "suite" songs, which is some of my favorite things.

And as much as people here seem to malign Systematic Chaos, I personally think it was the last great Dream Theater album. At least, it is the last one where I liked every song.

[3LockBox]

I don't think anything happened to Dream Theater beyond what happens to all acts of their type who eventually wear thin. I feel the same way about Spock's beard. Too many prog acts are like that in general. They are like Fast and Furious movies. Who needs to own any Fast and Furious movie when you can just wait a couple of years and watch the new one that comes out. People who are in a position of seeing Dream Theater tour should just go to the concerts and enjoy the band because of what they represent and not so much of the music they currently put out. Hey, even your favorite amusement park eventually gets boring. Kudos to the 90s prog acts who kept prog on life support.

[DoubleDrummer]

I read the DT biography -- LIFTING SHADOWS -- at the beach last year.
Interestingly Images and Words (often mentioned here in this thread) was a huge album for DT.
At the time, the record company was about to cut the band loose because they were not hitting on all cylinders in the context of selling anything.
The band decided to record an album of songs, rather than the longer stories or any concept theme...............this caused a but of discontent with the band and some disagreement among members.
But, as it plays out, I&W paid off for them, especially Pull Me Under.................they became a recognized act with all that.
So for all you guys that love SFAM or 6DOIT or whatever...............these albums may have never been offered if it wasn't for the success of I&W.

[Wounded Land]

I love these guys but I got off the boat after ADTOE. I just don't think the writing is there anymore. I too feel like the band lost something important after Portnoy left, which is ironic because I think he was the major contributing factor to some questionable musical decisions they made in their later years. Nevertheless, the magic is gone for me, even though Mangini is a superior drummer and seems like a good guy. I do think that ADTOE is a very good album, but the ones after that...not so much, for me, at least.

I&W and SFAM are still two of my favorite albums, though.

[moecurlythanu]

When the band did their commentary on the Live Scenes DVD they actually pointed out some of the obvious homages--"we were thinking of Meshuggah here, that one's the Zappa section" etc--I remember shaking my head and thinking "well, that figures."

ABC's sketch comedy program Fridays back in the day had a sketch called "That's Meshuggah" too. Better than the DT version.