F1 Racing

[SteveSly]

It was a good race, and I was hoping that experience would trump youth

The pits in Indy seem to be absolutely chaotic! How many people spun out in the pits, or braked at the last minute to send mechanics jumping out of the way? And how many of what F1 would call "unsafe release" incidents were there? Chaos!



Still - it was a fun race to watch.

As Hobo Chang Ba says, something was up with the pits yesterday as that was very very unusual. At least two of the cars appeared to have some kind of brake issue going on. Accidents in the pits at Indy do occasionally happen, but it is very rare to have so many incidents.

[SteveSly]

I still like the original GWC from the truck days...unlimited attempts. What they have now is probably a fairer system, although I still don't like using the scoring loops to determine where people are at the moment of caution. I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented in Indycar. Definitely agree with the lap car stuff, and I wouldn't mind double file restarts being a thing in F1 and Indycar as well, but I can understand the issues there.

And one quick note on nascar...I really wish they would get rid of stage racing. The coke 600 tonight was completely neutered due to it being basically four 100 lap races in a row. A pretty boring show, especially after a pretty interesting 500.

Double stage restarts have also now become the norm in lower level open wheel racing in the U.S. Sprint Cars adopted it about 10 years ago and personally I love it.

Stage racing in NASCAR is a joke. I think they are trying to make it more like the "heat" race format that short tracks use, but yes it completely disrupts the flow of the race.

[Hal...]

Cool to see the "old man" win his 4th Indy 500 today.

My brother texted me to find out who I was rooting for and I said anyone who drives for Andretti, Rahal Letterman Lanigan, or Ed Carpenter.

I never really cared for Helio so those last 15 laps, or so, I felt like I didn't have a dog in the fight. At least, until, Ed Carpenter got onto the back of the four front runners. I thought he might finish better but he still ended up 5th. Bummer.

Still, I was glad to see Helio win if only because he took the victory from Ganassi & Penske. And I have to admit, seeing him celebrate and seeing the other drivers come out to congratulate him was nice to watch.

The biggest disappoints for me were when Alexander Rossi's car had the same issue Dixon's did and he went a lap down, when Ryan Hunter-Reay got the drive thru penalty because he had a brake issue like others did, and when Graham Rahal came out of the pits looking like he'd be in the top five. I was absolutey thrilled for Rahal. And then his tire came off. I was soooo bummed.

And, naturally, the biggest disappointment of all was the number of commercials NBC showed. I don't know if any of you noticed but at one point they had a whopping four minutes of racing before they went back to a commercial.



BTW, curious about the cost to NBC to air the Indy 500 and Indycar series, I ran across this article that said NBC is ending NBCSports at the end of 2021, which airs over half the Indycar races. Also, NBC's contract w/Indycar ends at the end of 2021. So, what's to become of Indycar? With NBC Sports phasing out, what's the future for IndyCar broadcasts?

I also ran across this article: 'Driving me insane': Race fans frustrated with TV commercials during Indy 500

If I was Roger Penske, et al, I'd push for an ESPN type deal like F1 has.

And maybe if we start a letter writing campaign to eliminate - or at least severely limit - commercials, they'll listen. Here's the corporate address to Indycar and its CEO of Penske Entertainment, Mark Miles:

4551 West 16th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46222

[NogbadTheBad]

Way too many commercials on NBC coverage. I'm just not that much of a fan of oval racing even if it allows for more overtaking. I got pretty bored watching a line of cars loop the track. It also seemed hard to follow with all the fuel stops to tell strategically who was in a good spot.

[Just Eric]

I'll echo the too many commercials mantra. Took all the air out of the experience watching on TV. And the split screen was worthless. The F1 commentators are miles ahead of the 10 for NBC and often they would call out things that viewers had no way of seeing. "Great overtake there by so and so" but no replay, no camera view. I may have well listened on the radio.

The pits were super chaotic! That was the show, successful navigation of pit row.

The ending was fascinating and edge of the seat and that made it all worthwhile. I do wish that instead of watching live I DVR's and sped through the Ads.

[SteveSly]

I agree, the commercials were really really annoying. I am also not a big fan of the current broadcast team. Paul Page was the voice of Indy for years and still the best. He is an old man now and for the most part retired, but he blew away the current broadcast team.

[SteveSly]

My brother texted me to find out who I was rooting for and I said anyone who drives for Andretti, Rahal Letterman Lanigan, or Ed Carpenter.

I never really cared for Helio so those last 15 laps, or so, I felt like I didn't have a dog in the fight. At least, until, Ed Carpenter got onto the back of the four front runners. I thought he might finish better but he still ended up 5th. Bummer.

Still, I was glad to see Helio win if only because he took the victory from Ganassi & Penske. And I have to admit, seeing him celebrate and seeing the other drivers come out to congratulate him was nice to watch.

The biggest disappoints for me were when Alexander Rossi's car had the same issue Dixon's did and he went a lap down, when Ryan Hunter-Reay got the drive thru penalty because he had a brake issue like others did, and when Graham Rahal came out of the pits looking like he'd be in the top five. I was absolutey thrilled for Rahal. And then his tire came off. I was soooo bummed.

And, naturally, the biggest disappointment of all was the number of commercials NBC showed. I don't know if any of you noticed but at one point they had a whopping four minutes of racing before they went back to a commercial.

4551 West 16th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46222[/indent]

Rossi and Dixon were a victim of circumstances totally out of their control. I felt bad for both of them, but it is what it is.

I like Carpenter too. He is the hometown kid who I would like to have seen win.

I would not want to be that pit crew member who did not secure Rahal's tire. I am guessing he no longer has a job today. I like Rahal, but he has always been a bit of an underachiever IMO. He seemed to think he had a car to win it in the after accident interview.

Helio obviously has a lot of respect from his fellow drivers. I have always liked the guy.

[Duncan Glenday]

Rossi and Dixon were a victim of circumstances totally out of their control. I felt bad for both of them, but it is what it is.

I like Carpenter too. He is the hometown kid who I would like to have seen win.

I would not want to be that pit crew member who did not secure Rahal's tire. I am guessing he no longer has a job today. I like Rahal, but he has always been a bit of an underachiever IMO. He seemed to think he had a car to win it in the after accident interview.

Helio obviously has a lot of respect from his fellow drivers. I have always liked the guy.

It wasn't that crew member's fault.

Shit happens, and wheels don't always go on properly.

The fault was with the guy who gave Rahal the "go" signal. That guy should have seen that the crew was still busy and had him wait.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Hopefully one day we will remove ourselves from the reigns of overarching capitalism, but until then it is what it is regarding commercials. Good for ESPN for airing this one thing commercial free, but it is also not their broadcast, which I suspect would play a role, as all their other sporting events are chock full of them.

Also, I find the F1 commentators way worse than the indycar guys. But give me Varsha, Hobbs, and Matchett everyday of the week.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Double stage restarts have also now become the norm in lower level open wheel racing in the U.S. Sprint Cars adopted it about 10 years ago and personally I love it.

Stage racing in NASCAR is a joke. I think they are trying to make it more like the "heat" race format that short tracks use, but yes it completely disrupts the flow of the race.

Good to know! Hopefully it makes it way up the ladder soon.

And as far as I know...they are trying to make the midrace parts more 'interesting', presumably for casual viewers. I also dislike the new playoff format they've been using for the past several years. I'm not sure why I still watch nascar some days.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Way too many commercials on NBC coverage. I'm just not that much of a fan of oval racing even if it allows for more overtaking. I got pretty bored watching a line of cars loop the track. It also seemed hard to follow with all the fuel stops to tell strategically who was in a good spot.

I don't really see the difference between an oval loop and a spaghetti shaped loop of a road course, in terms of boredom. For me it's all about the competitiveness of the race, and both ovals and road/street circuits can produce shit racing or tremendous racing.

[SteveSly]

I don't really see the difference between an oval loop and a spaghetti shaped loop of a road course, in terms of boredom. For me it's all about the competitiveness of the race, and both ovals and road/street circuits can produce shit racing or tremendous racing.

A good example would be Monaco this year. Follow the leader, dull racing on a legendary course.

[SteveSly]

It wasn't that crew member's fault.

Shit happens, and wheels don't always go on properly.

The fault was with the guy who gave Rahal the "go" signal. That guy should have seen that the crew was still busy and had him wait.

Good point, maybe it was the signal guy.

[Just Eric]

Good point, maybe it was the signal guy.

Is that the official term? I like the guy behind the barrier who catches the hydraulic ratchet and hose flung by the right front tire guy. Second place goes to the guy who holds the long pole stop here sign.

[Hal...]

I'm just not that much of a fan of oval racing even if it allows for more overtaking.

My issue isn't the increase in overtaking, it's that everyone runs the same kind of chassis that enables such easy slip-streaming. Back in the day, you might have a car that was so strong, he'd leave everyone in the dust. That's pretty much impossible since the rules change. It makes for closer racing but it also means the result isn't decided until that last 1-3 laps. In that respect, it's more like stock car racing. And I don't care for it.

I got pretty bored watching a line of cars loop the track.

More bored than the days in F1 where you had nothing but a train with increasing gaps and no overtaking???

Also, you have to understand that unlike any other race in the world, the race can change dramatically as it goes on, given how long it is. It lasts from around 2:37:00 to over 3½ hours (back in the early days, it lasted 4-6 hours!). Consequently, the weather plays a big part and track temps affect car handling like no other race because the cars are so sensitive to the environment. Cars can go from having oversteer to being balanced to being loose from one stint to the next. And the drivers are usually running at or close to the limit. So, the reality is that a car can be going along just fine until it doesn't and then it hits the wall. And no amount of skill can overcome that. A lot of big names have hit the wall, including Mario Andretti, Nigel Mansell, and Nelson Piquet. So for long time viewers, there's always a subtle sense of dread that there's going to be an accident, which adds to the drama. Or did, before the plethora of commercials ruined that.

It also seemed hard to follow with all the fuel stops to tell strategically who was in a good spot.

That's always been an issue. If they get around 30 laps on a tank of fuel, then 200 divided by 30 is 6.666, so they'll need to stop 7 times. Teams often bring their car in at various times to give themselves an advantage or to make up lost places. So it's the commentators' responsibility to make that known. I remember back in 1995, Jacques Villeneuve had fallen back two laps. Due to full course cautions and pit strategy, he not only got back onto the lead lap, he won!

Paul Page was the voice of Indy for years and still the best

Agreed.

I would not want to be that pit crew member who did not secure Rahal's tire

I agree with Duncan. It wasn't his fault. Sometimes shit happens, for whatever reason, when it comes to putting tires on. At Monaco, Bottas had to retire because of a problem with a rear wheel nut or shaft.

As Duncan said, "the fault was with the guy who gave Rahal the 'go' signal."

I've said for a really long time, since back when they still had refueling accidents in both F1 and CART, that there should be a rule in place that the last thing the crew does is lower the car back down on the track. In F1, it isn't an issue anymore since they no longer refuel. But in Indycar, refueling takes longer than changing tires so keeping the car jacked up prevents the driver from leaving before refueling is finished. Had that rule been in place, I'm positive Rahal's wheel would have been secured.

I like Rahal, but he has always been a bit of an underachiever IMO. He seemed to think he had a car to win it in the after accident interview.

I used to think that but looking over his career, I don't really know how good he is. His first season in Champ car, he finished 5th. His next five seasons in IRL/Indycar, he finished near the bottom in two and in the top 10 three times (7th, 9th, & 10th). His first two seasons on his dad's team he finished near the bottom. Since then, he's had seven straight top ten finishes, including two top five finishes and he's currently 5th. As for Indy itself, he's had three top 5 finishes, including two 3rds.

He did have a strong car Sunday, starting 18th, and had moved up ten places. He was also getting great fuel mileage. Had his wheel stayed on, he probably would have blended in about 4th or 5th and would have been a contender for the win. We'll never know, tho, will we?

Also, I find the F1 commentators way worse than the indycar guys.

What??? I completely disagree. I think Crofty & Brundle are excellent and certainly better than Diffey, Bell, and Tracy, the last of whom I can't stand.

But give me Varsha, Hobbs, and Matchett everyday of the week.

Bob Varsha was probably the best play-by-play guy I've ever heard but Paul Page and David Croft are close behind. Crofty just gets a little exuberant, sometimes. Page had the best voice.

As for Hobbs & Matchett, I don't know. I wouldn't say they are better than Brundle. Matchett, as excellent as he was, sometimes over-explained things. He could also be pedantic. I mean, is it really necessary to constantly refer to the hard compound tire as the "harder" tire, as if harder compounds that aren't being used for that race are somehow relevant? You don't see Crofty or Brundle doing that. He could be humorous, tho, especially during those couple seasons when, after a rules change, the engines weren't all that reliable.

As I said the other day, the best color commentator I've ever heard was Parker Johnstone. And I'd put Brundle and Eddie Cheever right behind, if only because Hobbs was occasionally difficult to understand, given his marbled-mouth accent and his occasional inside jokes.

And even tho I never watched stock car, sometimes if I was at my parents' house and my dad was watching a race, I'd also watch just because of Ned Jarrett. He was an excellent color commentator, as well.

The worst, imo, were Sam Posey and Bobby Unser. They used to irritate me. Altho, there was this one time when Posey & Unser had a disagreement and neither would back down. Finally, Bobby forcefully exclaimed in that strange, Southern drawl of his, "you're wrong, Sam!" OMG, that cracked me up.

Actually, now that I think about it, the worst color commentator I've heard was when Mario Andretti sat in the booth for a race. He didn't say a lot and when he did, they weren't the kind of comments with inside knowledge you'd get from Brundle or Cheever or Hobbs.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

A good example would be Monaco this year. Follow the leader, dull racing on a legendary course.

At least it was on a legendary course! For me there is just a special magic in Monaco. But it does lead to that type of racing, and I certainly wouldn't use that race to introduce people to the sport.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

As for commentators...Brundle is fine, but Croft is the real problem. Everything is the most exciting thing to happen in the history of mankind with him. I can't take him seriously and is the main reason I watch F1 with the sound off. But he is obviously good at speaking quickly and seems knowledgeable which is nice. The absolute worst is Marty Reid, who doesn't have either of those saving graces. Not sure who I would consider the worst color commentator...most of the ones I've listened to have at least been competent. Nascar does this thing every now and then where they make it 'drivers week' in the broadcast booth. Some of those guys they get and clearly not destined to be future broadcasting stars, but they also aren't really doing that for a living either.

[Duncan Glenday]

As for commentators...Brundle is fine, but Croft is the real problem.

My wife and I find that we'll make an observation about something that's happening in the race, and Croft / Brundle / et al say the same thing about 30 seconds later.

It's like they were listening to us for hints about what's really happening. (Ignore the fact that we're always watching a DVR recording several hours after the actual race )

[SteveSly]

For announcers no one has mentioned Jackie Stewart. I used to think he did a nice job back in the day.

[Duncan Glenday]

And although James Hunt was a hell of a personality, he was an awful announcer "back in the day".

[Just Eric]

For announcers no one has mentioned Jackie Stewart. I used to think he did a nice job back in the day.

A legend like Chick Hearn, Harry Caray, Cosell (Boxing), Bill King, and Johnny Most

In the Bay Area we have Greg Papa who has multi-year stints with the Oakland Raiders, Oakland A's, San Francisco Giants, Golden State Warriors and now the San Francisco 49ers. Outside the Bay Area he had stints with the Indiana Pacers and San Antonio Spurs - a job he started 2 years after graduating high school!

[Hobo Chang Ba]

For announcers no one has mentioned Jackie Stewart. I used to think he did a nice job back in the day.

Before my time, but from the clips I've seen he was definitely one of the best.

[SteveSly]

My issue isn't the increase in overtaking, it's that everyone runs the same kind of chassis that enables such easy slip-streaming. Back in the day, you might have a car that was so strong, he'd leave everyone in the dust. That's pretty much impossible since the rules change. It makes for closer racing but it also means the result isn't decided until that last 1-3 laps. In that respect, it's more like stock car racing. And I don't care for it.obbs.

I am the opposite. Maybe it is because I grew up with mostly oval racing, but I like close tight racing and am not a fan of the team with the most money and the best car win. I remember going to an Indy Car race at M.I.S. once back in the 80's or 90's where Nigel Mansel lapped the entire field. One of the most boring races I have ever seen.

Of course F-1 is a totally different animal since the cars are the top of the food chain from a technology standpoint and car innovation is part of what it is all about.

[Hal...]

FYI, the Azerbaijan GP is this weekend.

For announcers no one has mentioned Jackie Stewart. I used to think he did a nice job back in the day.

I thought of him but I was too young to really consider whether he was good or not. I remember my dad complaining about him. Don't remember why, tho.

I am the opposite. Maybe it is because I grew up with mostly oval racing, but I like close tight racing and am not a fan of the team with the most money and the best car win. I remember going to an Indy Car race at M.I.S. once back in the 80's or 90's where Nigel Mansel lapped the entire field. One of the most boring races I have ever seen.

Of course F-1 is a totally different animal since the cars are the top of the food chain from a technology standpoint and car innovation is part of what it is all about.

I like close racing, too. But the way Indycar has gone about it is artificial. I get that one of the major reasons is to keep costs down, but it feels bush league to me, like the lesser series where they all use the same chassis and engine.

Back in '93, the year Mansell lapped the entire field at Michigan, CART had six different chassis and five different engines, so in that respect, they were much more like F1 than they are today. But that race was an aberration, too. He only won 31% of the races that year, a year that had six different winners. The last time F1 had at least six different winners in a season was in 2012, when Vettel won 25% of the races to win the championship.

From the late '80s until the Split, CART was the most competitive open wheel racing series in the world. In nine years, they had seven different drivers champions - Rahal, Sullivan, Fittipaldi, Unser Jr, Andretti, Mansell, and Villeneuve - and seven different team champions. In the last 40 years, F1 has only had 17 different driving champions; ten were multiple winners (58.8%). Conversely, in the 17 years of the "CART Indycar" series ('80-'96), only four were multiple winners (23.5%). The last most competitive era in F1 was from '73-'82, when there were nine different champions in ten years: Stewart, Fittipaldi, Lauda (2x), Hunt, Andretti, Scheckter, Jones, Piquet, and Rosberg. I will say, tho, that since their inaugural season in '96/'97, IRL/Indycar has had 14 driver's champions, with only four multiple winners: Hornish, Dixon, Franchitti, and Newgarden. Otoh, Dixon won it 6x, Franchitti 4x, and Hornish 3x.

But the way I see it, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I was a big fan of Mansell in F1 and was thrilled by his result at Michigan. Unfortunately, the following year he showed what an ass he could be.

Mario Andretti, the 1978 world champion, was briefly partnered with Mansell when the Briton broke into Formula 1 with Lotus in 1980. The pair were reunited in 1993 after Mansell sensationally quit F1 as the reigning world champion and switched to the US-based Champ Car series. Mansell arrived in a blaze of publicity and the veteran Andretti – then in the twilight of his illustrious career – was effectively marginalized in the Newman/Haas team which he had been a key part of for over a decade. Mansell won the Champ Car title first time out, but the love affair turned sour the following year when his car was uncompetitive. That led to increased friction within the team and more than one on-track clash with Andretti, putting a dampener on the Italian-American’s “arrivederci” testimonial year.

“I guess if Ronnie Peterson was the best team-mate I ever had, Nigel Mansell was the worst,” Andretti told F1 Racing magazine. “He was a manipulator. He always got what he wanted – undivided attention and better equipment. I can’t blame him for pulling the team around him – and him only – but whenever things went wrong for him, he would instantly start trashing the team. That was so wrong. He was so ungracious. I had a lot of respect for him as a driver, but not as a man.”

I remember some of Nigel's bad behavior and he fell out of favor with me.

[Hal...]

Does anyone remember during that press conference in '92 when Mansell announced his retirement from F1 and a rep from Williams came in with a last minute offer and Mansell just brushed them aside? I thought that was funny.

The thing I remember most about Nigel was his pass on Gerhard Berger at the 1990 Mexican GP on the outside of that long, fast 180° turn, Peraltada. David Hobbs said, "he passed him on the outside! You can't do that!" Here's the video, with Murray Walker and James Hunt providing commentary; I love Murray's reaction (the video should start at 12:00):




You know, I don't think I have ever heard a Brit pronounce "Ayrton" correctly. Back in 1984, I saw an Al Di Meola show with Airto Moreira on percussion and Phil Markowitz on piano. Airto is Portuguese, as well, and he made of point of teaching us how to pronounce his name. It was funny, too, because he pointed to each body part as he said, "eye - ear - toe." And that's how you pronounce "Ayrton", but with an "n" on the end: eye - ear - tone, with the accent on "ear".