F1 Racing

[Hal...]

I just finished the most recent season of Drive To Survive on Netflix. I am not a person who follows Formula 1 that close, but I have really enjoyed the series. For those of you more familiar with F-1 I have a few questions that after watching the series I am not clear on:

• What is the difference between the Red Bull team and the Toro Rosso team? One appears to be considered a higher level than the other one, but that is never really explained. Pierre Gasley gets cut from the Red Bull team, but then ends up on Toro Rosso and finishes the season ahead of one of the Red Bull driers in the standings. How does that all work? Are they the same team just with different names or are they different teams?

Ian already answered this question, for the most part, but left out three important aspects:

1. Toro Rosso (who is known as AlphaTauri for 2020) is a completely different team but owned by the same parent company, Red Bull GmbH, the beverage company headquartered in Austria. They also own Red Bull Racing. It's sort of like the difference between ABC & FX, both owned by Disney Media. BTW, "toro rosso" is simply Italian for "red bull".

2. The reason that Gasly finished the season ahead of Alexander Albon, who replaced him at Red Bull, is because Red Bull is the better team and Gasly usually finished ahead of Albon for the first 12 races. Albon was in the Red Bull for only 9 races. Gasly's average finish in a RB was around 7.5; Albon's average was 6.2.
Now, what will really blow your mind is that the other driver at TR, Dany Kvyat , was first signed to TR in 2014, then went to RB for '15 & '16, was demoted to TR mid season in '16 (replaced by Verstappen), stayed there for '17 until he was replaced by Gasly, and was then let go. He was a development driver for Ferrari for '18 but then re-signed by TR for '19. I'm of the opinion Kvyat isn't that good, even tho he often outperformed Albon in '19. The difference is that Kvyat couldn't handle the pressure at RB. Nor could Gasly, for that matter. Albon stepped in and has outperformed them both.

3. Red Bull has the best Technical Director in F1: Adrian Newey.

• Mercedes appears to own young drivers who are on other teams? The kid who drives for Williams (name escapes me) is actually managed and owned by Mercedes? There was another driver on the show that seemed to be in the same situation. How does that work? I have never heard of anything like that in U.S. based racing.

You're thinking of George Russell. Estoban Ocon and Pascal Wehrlein were a couple more. Wehrlein never really did anything in F1 but Ocon ended up at Renault with Daniel Ricciardo and severed his relationship with Mercedes.

• Why does the show feature some teams and drivers and completely ignore others? I am thinking of teams like Alfa Romero who have well known drivers but are hardly mentioned in the series.

Two reasons:
1. They go where the drama or interesting story is (e.g. Daniel Ricciardo switching to Renault).

2. Because those others were "also rans". The last six teams in the constructor's championship were (points in parentheses):

5. Renault (91)
6. Toro Rosso (85)
7. Racing Point - BWT (those ugly-ass pink cars) (73)
8. Alfa Romeo (57)
9. Haas (28)
10. Williams (1)

There just isn't much interest in them.

[NogbadTheBad]

I also think they don't tend to do many shows on Mercedes as they are just too boringly efficient, rarely make mistakes and never deviate from script, think Pats-Brady-Bilichek

[Hal...]

They are based in different cities, Milton Keynes in the UK for Red Bull & Faenza in Italy for Toro Rosso. They have the same engine manufacturers, Renault.

They switched to Hondas last year, remember? The year before, RB used Renaults while TR used Hondas. And one year RB used Renaults while TR used Ferraris.

For a few years. the Honda engine was a real dud. Alonso retired too soon. I can only imagine what he would have done last year had he stayed at McLaren when you consider they finished 4th in the Constructors' with drivers like Sainz & Norris.

[NogbadTheBad]

They switched to Hondas last year, remember? The year before, RB used Renaults while TR used Hondas. And one year RB used Renaults while TR used Ferraris.

For a few years. the Honda engine was a real dud. Alonso retired too soon. I can only imagine what he would have done last year had he stayed at McLaren when you consider they finished 4th in the Constructors' with drivers like Sainz & Norris.

Ah yes, hard to keep track, you're right on Alonso, guess he got frustrated and doesn't need the money

[Hal...]

Nope. According to some sources, he's worth about $240 million.

I've come to believe he's had a lot of bad luck and often thought he should have stayed with Benetton/Renault. lol He went to McLaren where he was essentially relegated to the #2 driver when Hamilton came onboard, went back to Renault who'd become a dud, went to Ferrari when they weren't competitive, and ended up at McLaren who hasn't won shit since '98.

I've never seen a driver have that kind of foreknowledge about who's not going to be competitive.

[SteveSly]

You're thinking of George Russell. Estoban Ocon and Pascal Wehrlein were a couple more. Wehrlein never really did anything in F1 but Ocon ended up at Renault with Daniel Ricciardo and severed his relationship with Mercedes.


Two reasons:
1. They go where the drama or interesting story is (e.g. Daniel Ricciardo switching to Renault).

2. Because those others were "also rans". The last six teams in the constructor's championship were (points in parentheses):

5. Renault (91)
6. Toro Rosso (85)
7. Racing Point - BWT (those ugly-ass pink cars) (73)
8. Alfa Romeo (57)
9. Haas (28)
10. Williams (1)

There just isn't much interest in them.

I could swear that they profiled a driver who was signing to drive for another team, but his manager was the Mercedes guy and he was under some kind of contract, but signed to this other team. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I remember finding it very strange when watching it.

Regarding the also ran comment. They did almost complete shows in Williams and Hass, and I actually found them almost more interesting than the shows focused on the big teams. I remember last year they featured the pink cars in one episode, but they were Team India (or something like that) at that point?

At the end of the season they indicated that there was a plan in place for some kind of leveling of the playing field, from a money perspective for 2020. Obviously 2020 has not happened at this point, but do either of you know what that plan was? I guess you find this in all forms of racing, but Formula 1 especially seems to be where a very limited number of top money teams are the only ones in contention.

[Hal...]

I could swear that they profiled a driver who was signing to drive for another team, but his manager was the Mercedes guy and he was under some kind of contract, but signed to this other team. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I remember finding it very strange when watching it.

When you say the "Mercedes guy", do you mean Toto Wolff or Lewis Hamilton? I think both have a contract with a driver. Or maybe not. Hell, it's been at least 6 months since I've seen anything about that and I'm getting old. lol

I'm thinking that was George Russell, tho, but I haven't seen that episode yet. My apologies. I've hardly watched any TV/movies for a while now, preferring to read.

Unless you're thinking of Lance Stroll. Or Esteban Ocon. There's another guy who got sidelined last year but I can't think of who that was. Sorry.

Regarding the also ran comment. They did almost complete shows in Williams and Hass, and I actually found them almost more interesting than the shows focused on the big teams. I remember last year they featured the pink cars in one episode, but they were Team India (or something like that) at that point?

Yeah, last season they covered Haas. That was really interesting, I agree. Williams would be interesting too since they were such a dominating force in the '80s and part of the '90s.

The pink team was Force India two years ago. The major share holder in the team got into big trouble, legally and financially (iirc), so another group or two stepped in to keep the team running.

At the end of the season they indicated that there was a plan in place for some kind of leveling of the playing field, from a money perspective for 2020. Obviously 2020 has not happened at this point, but do either of you know what that plan was? I guess you find this in all forms of racing, but Formula 1 especially seems to be where a very limited number of top money teams are the only ones in contention.

I read an article about "leveling the playing field" in Dec or Jan. I think the plan was simply to have a budget limit. The top three's spending has gotten out of hand.

As for F1 having so few contenders due to spending, that's been more of a "recent" development, since probably the '80s when Honda was spending bucket loads on the McLaren Honda. Back in the day, I don't think there were any "factory" teams, other than Ferrari and Mercedes in the '50s. Even then, Ferrari started out as just another boutique car maker (decades ago, of course). Today, Mercedes' (or Ferrari's) budget probably exceeds the total budget for all of the IRL combined. I'm too lazy to check but it wouldn't surprise me if the combined budget of Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull last year was greater than the combined budgets of all the IRL and NASCAR teams. F1 is well over a billion dollars, now.

Didn't you tell me a couple years ago you saw the documentary on Williams? That's pretty much how it used to be.

You mentioned Ford vs Ferrari a few months back and I forgot to comment. No, I didn't get to see it. I'm not sure I wanted to see it; I tend to shy away from dramatizations like that. It's why I never saw the one about Nicki Lauda and James Hunt. I'd usually rather see a documentary.

Speaking of which, there was a documentary about Le Mans or Ford and Ferrari that I saw on Amazon Prime. I think Ian saw it. Can't remember if you did. That was an excellent movie! I think it was The 24 Hour War. Unfortunately, it's not free anymore.

When looking for the title of it, I ran across a doc, which is free w/Prime, that I keep forgetting to watch: 1. From Wikipedia: "The film traces the history of Formula One auto racing from its early years, in which some seasons had multiple fatalities, to the 1994 death of Ayrton Senna, the sport's most recent death at the time of production. Extensive and often rare archival footage is used throughout."

Lastly, not F1 related, is The World's Fastest Indian. It's a biopic starring Anthony Hopkins as a Kiwi who tries to set the land speed record for motorcycles. I was a little dubious about how good it would be. I shouldn't have been. I'm not sure where you can find it, now, but you may try your local library. You won't be disappointed.

[SteveSly]

When you say the "Mercedes guy", do you mean Toto Wolff or Lewis Hamilton? I think both have a contract with a driver. Or maybe not. Hell, it's been at least 6 months since I've seen anything about that and I'm getting old. lol


Didn't you tell me a couple years ago you saw the documentary on Williams? That's pretty much how it used to be.

You mentioned Ford vs Ferrari a few months back and I forgot to comment. No, I didn't get to see it. I'm not sure I wanted to see it; I tend to shy away from dramatizations like that. It's why I never saw the one about Nicki Lauda and James Hunt. I'd usually rather see a documentary.

Speaking of which, there was a documentary about Le Mans or Ford and Ferrari that I saw on Amazon Prime. I think Ian saw it. Can't remember if you did. That was an excellent movie! I think it was The 24 Hour War. Unfortunately, it's not free anymore.

When looking for the title of it, I ran across a doc, which is free w/Prime, that I keep forgetting to watch: 1. From Wikipedia: "The film traces the history of Formula One auto racing from its early years, in which some seasons had multiple fatalities, to the 1994 death of Ayrton Senna, the sport's most recent death at the time of production. Extensive and often rare archival footage is used throughout."

Lastly, not F1 related, is The World's Fastest Indian. It's a biopic starring Anthony Hopkins as a Kiwi who tries to set the land speed record for motorcycles. I was a little dubious about how good it would be. I shouldn't have been. I'm not sure where you can find it, now, but you may try your local library. You won't be disappointed.

It was Toto Wollf I was thinking about. He appeared to be the manager (or something like that) of a younger driver who was on another lower level team, but I can't recall the drivers name.

I did see the documentary on Williams, but it has been a while.

I thought the film "Ford Vs Ferrari" was really really well done. I agree with you that most racing movies are not very good, but I thought they knocked it out of the park with this one, and it deserved the accolades it got. There was also a very good documentary on Netflix about the same subject matter that was very good.

I will try to check out those other docs you mention. Netflix has a few others that deal with F-1 racing that I want to check out too.

Also, I have seen The Worlds Fastest Indian, but it has been a long time ago. I remember it being a good film.

[Hal...]

Some observations and comments about F1, in general and for this season.

• This season is only 13 races, so far, some of which are being run on the same track but with different titles (Spielberg and Silverstone). I hope they put an asterisk next to the season and winners.

• They're racing at Mugello for the first time ever, afaik. It's home to the Italian GP in MotoGP. The track is near Florence, Italy. This should be interesting.

• Last year, I noticed a drop off in results for Ferrari sometime in the second half of the season, both in qualifying and in the races, but never knew why. They reported during this season's first race that Ferrari was doing something with their engines they weren't supposed to be doing and to avoid fines, fixed the "issue". Consequently, they weren't quite as fast. Seeing how they're doing this season, so far, almost constantly being out-performed by teams like Racing Point, Red Bull, McLaren, and Renault, leads me to believe Mercedes has either found something in the regs that they're taking advantage of or they're not playing fair.

• I was afraid Mercedes' dominance was going to make this season boring AF, like when Schumacher was driving for Ferrari. I missed many of those seasons for that reason. However, possibly for the first time, this season has been really fun for me because I'm generally only watching the "also-rans". Watching Max Verstappen, Perez, Stroll, Norris, Sainz, Ricciardo, Leclerc, and Gasly duke it out has been fun. And seeing Russell doing relatively well has been a nice change.

• Watching Albon struggle has not been fun. When he stepped into the Red Bull seat, mid season last year, and started having success I was glad because I thought he was better than Gasly or Kvyat. Now that Gasly is still at Alpha Tauri (Toro Rosso last year) and is often performing better than Albon makes me wonder what's going on at Red Bull. I suspect the team is so focused on Max that whoever's the #2 at Red Bull gets no attention whatsoever.

• Other than one season, a few years ago, Vettel has been more or less a nothing after they changed the regs and Red Bull lost their advantage. He doesn't seem to be able to drive the "new car". He finished 5th in 2014 and thereafter has finished 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 2nd (this was a fluke, I'd argue), and 5th. So far this season, he's 13th in the standings and finished 10th, DNF, 6th, and 10th. His contract was not renewed at Ferrari for next year so maybe that has something to do with it.

• Equally disappointing has been Kimi's results. He's finishing better than his teammate, Giovinazzi, but in qualifying, Giovinazzi leads 3-1. It's sad, especially since Kimi should have at least one more Driver's title.

• Perez getting Covid-19 and being replaced by Nico Hulkenberg, a driver I've always felt should have had a better drive. Last week, at Silverstone, was Hulk's first race and due to engine issues wasn't able to start the race. He only qualified 13th while his teammate, Stroll, qualified 6th. Of course, it was Hulk's first time in a car since December 1. The day before jumping into the Racing Point, he was sitting around eating a pastry, taking it easy. Today, also at Silverstone, he qualified 3rd! Stroll qualified 6th. No one has a chance at winning other than the cheating Mercedes, but Hulk has a very good chance at a podium. He out-qualified Max by nearly 0.1, Ricciardo by over 0.2, and everyone else by at least 0.3. I think the one guy he was to watch out for is Max but the Racing Point has a stronger engine (a Mercedes). Can't wait for tomorrow. I'd love to see Hulk on the podium, which would be a first for him. It might also get him a drive for next year. FYI, he has 511 points in 177 starts. And in case you missed last week's race, some drivers had tire issues. Hamilton and Bottas both had de-laminations. Bottas ended up dropping from 2nd to 11th while Hamilton's tire deflated on the last lap and he was able to limp the car home to 1st. Lucky SOB. Max actually could have won that race but Red Bull brought him in to change tires when they didn't need to. Consequently, when Hamilton's tire deflated, Max could have caught and passed him. And this week, they'll be running on softer compound tires. Could Hulk finish 2nd or even win? Should be a really good race watching the also-rans.

[Hal...]

What a great race! Max & Red Bull had the Mercedes covered and managed to win.

Leclerc was one of only three who finished on a one stop strategy and he finished 4th after starting 8th! Otherwise, Ferrari has looked mediocre this season with Vettel finishing out of the points today.

Albon had a great race, too, coming from 9th to finish 5th after a very early stop and having to overtake nearly everyone.

Racing Point finished 6th & 7th, with Hulk in 7th. Not the result I hoped but he had tire issues late and had to pit.

Meanwhile, Ricciardo, who qualified 5th, had an abysmal race. Tire issues and a spin pushed him down to 14th.

The top ten was rounded out by Ocon, Norris, and Kvyat, in order.

Gasly, who started 7th, couldn't manage his tires and finished just out of the points, in 11th.

Alfa Romero, Haas, and Williams all had lackluster weekends.

I love races like that because you never know what's going to happen.

[NogbadTheBad]

Yeah, Red Bull got their tactics spot on and Mercedes showed their tire problems in the heat again. Hopefully we'll get more competitive racing. Vettel is going out ugly at Ferrari. No reason for an asterisk on the season, lots of F1 season have historically had fewer races. Before 1972 there were never more than 12 races, do we discount any of those championships? Are you doing to discount Fangio, Clark or Stewart?

[Hal...]

No reason for an asterisk on the season, lots of F1 season have historically had fewer races. Before 1972 there were never more than 12 races, do we discount any of those championships? Are you doing to discount Fangio, Clark or Stewart?

Good point. I stand corrected. Of course, races were much longer, then, too. Reims in France was over 5 miles, Bremgarten in Switzerland was 4½, Spa was nearly 9, and the German GP was just over 14.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have been old enough to see F1 after they went to rear-engined cars and watch guys like Clark, Brabham, Moss, Gurney, Hulme, Hill, and Hill. To me, that 10 year period, from '59 to '68 was the golden age of F1.

[NogbadTheBad]

100% agree.

[Duncan Glenday]

WHOAH - how did I not see this thread before?

I'm a mega-fan. I missed one race in 2006, but haven't missed one since - and have watched almost every qualifying session, and most free practices as well. In fandom and knowledge of the sport, I probably match Hal.

I physically attended several F1 races in the '70s, but haven't managed to get to one since. I need to fix that ... post-Covid.

I was on the pit wall in 1977 when Tom Price was killed (they didn't have actual "pit walls" then, but I was on the Armco between the pit and the track). Long story.

I was also hoping for (but not expecting) a podium for Hulkenberg in yesterday's race. But his performance in qualifying and in the practice sessions has probably thrown the cat among the pigeons. If I were Szafnauer, I'd be more inclined to sign Hulkenberg into a pink suit than either Vettel or Perez! Similarly, Hulkenberg must be looking attractive to Gunther Steiner (Haas) who has probably been looking for a way to unload the hot-again-cold-again-always-annoying Grosjean. Hulkenberg would probably be very affordable, and would bring a level of experience and stability the team desperately needs. Will Kimi stay? Only 9 more races (IIRC) before he matches Barrachello's record number of race starts. But other than that, I don't see much value in Sauber (er - "Alfa") keeping him around. Again - they might want to get Hulk's number into their speed-dials.

All that said, I don't recall when the various drivers' contracts run out, and that may limit Hulkenberg's return prospects.

My wife and I have been huge Hamilton fans since he first came into F1. I just wish he'd heed Zappa's advice - paraphrased as "shut up and drive your car". I fully understand and support his political / racial / etc. positions, but I'm not a fan of drivers or any other sports personality getting onto a proverbial milk crate.

Brief whinge:

I wish to God that tires were less of an issue, and do NOT agree with all of the tire-related regulations. I.e. the requirement to run 2 types of tire in a race, the requirement to start on your qualifying tires if you make it to Q3, and ... on and on. It should be about the cars and the drivers, and the tires should be just one of the components of the strategy. </rant>

[NogbadTheBad]

Welcome aboard Duncan!

I think they are trying to desperately find ways to slow down Mercedes given Ferrari's pathetic showing. Personally I'd be in favor of spending caps to bring the keen but 'relatively' poor teams into the competition. Thank god for Verstappen.

[Hal...]

If I were Szafnauer, I'd be more inclined to sign Hulkenberg into a pink suit than either Vettel or Perez!

I agree with that. Other than '17, Vettel hasn't been competitive since the regs change of 2014 (IMO, '18 was a fluke; indeed, not counting DNFs, Kimi finished higher than him as many times as he finished higher than Kimi; not good for the supposed #1; last year and this year, Leclerc has been showing him up, too). As for Perez, he usually puts his head down and just drives, often finishing better than he started. But prior to going to Force India/Racing Point, he could be hot & cold, too.

But I was just reading that Racing Point will be Aston Martin next year and Perez is supposedly already signed. However...

According to more German sources, the sponsors are offering to pay Racing Point substantially more money for 2021 if the team rejects the advances of Sebastian Vettel.

La Gazzetta dello Sport is claiming that Vettel has already signed a three-year deal, estimated at €15 million per year including an Aston Martin ambassadorial role.

The Italian newspaper said the announcement was only held up last weekend because of Perez's corona infection.

Vettel, the quadruple world champion who has been dropped by Ferrari for 2021, was spotted leaving Silverstone last Sunday with Racing Point boss Otmar Szafnauer.

Vettel on Thursday didn't deny it, smiling: "It's a nice car. It's a Ferrari Pista."

Similarly, Hulkenberg must be looking attractive to Gunther Steiner (Haas) who has probably been looking for a way to unload the hot-again-cold-again-always-annoying Grosjean. Hulkenberg would probably be very affordable, and would bring a level of experience and stability the team desperately needs.

God, I hope he doesn't end up at Haas. They showed potential in '18 but have been one of the back runners since, for the most part. In fact, they've sometimes competed with Williams for worst team. lol

With Sainz going to Ferrari next year, I'd like to see Hulk take his seat at McLaren, now that they've got most of the bugs worked out of that car. But I guess that's not going to happen? I just read that McLaren are going with Ricciardo & Norris. Good. Daniel needs a good team and Norris is showing a lot of potential.

Renault: supposedly, Alonso & Ocon.

Will Kimi stay? Only 9 more races (IIRC) before he matches Barrachello's record number of race starts. But other than that, I don't see much value in Sauber (er - "Alfa") keeping him around. Again - they might want to get Hulk's number into their speed-dials.

Kimi needs to retire. Not because he's not any good anymore but because he's never going to get another quality ride and he's just wasting time in the Alfa. And it's not like he needs the money. Give the ride to an up and comer.

I wish to God that tires were less of an issue, and do NOT agree with all of the tire-related regulations. I.e. the requirement to run 2 types of tire in a race, the requirement to start on your qualifying tires if you make it to Q3, and ... on and on. It should be about the cars and the drivers, and the tires should be just one of the components of the strategy. </rant>

I don't have an issue with the tire regs. It mixes things up.

Personally I'd be in favor of spending caps to bring the keen but 'relatively' poor teams into the competition.

This!

[Duncan Glenday]

Here's what I think could (okay, probably won't) happen with the next few driver-contracts:

Hulkenberg to the pinks (aka Aston Martin) - replacing Perez.

Perez to Red Bull - replacing Albon.

Albon back to Alpha Tauri - replacing Kvyyat. Albon and Gasly would be very strong in that team.

That would leave Vettel and Kvyyat out of a drive. No loss, IMO, though Sauber / Alfa Romeo could replace Raikkonen or Giovanazzi with either of them ... wouldn't make much difference.

Perhaps Kvyyat or Vettel (or Raikkonen) could replace Latifi at Williams. He does not seem to be working out.

[Hal...]

It'll be interesting, that's for sure.

I do like the idea of Albon & Gasly at Alpha Tauri, if Albon can't stay at Red Bull.

[NogbadTheBad]

No here can't, Verstappen is great but you can't be out performed by your team mate to that extent.

[Duncan Glenday]

No here can't, Verstappen is great but you can't be out performed by your team mate to that extent.

Agreed.

Witness Russell vs Kubica, or (currently) Russell vs Latifi.

Or LeClerc vs Vettel

[Hal...]

Agreed on all points.

According to an article on F1.com's website, Vettel is a definite no for Renault or Red Bull and Christian Horner says at this point his drivers are Max & Albon.

Bottas has already signed with Mercedes and it's a given Hamilton will, also.

Ferrari has signed Leclerc and Sainz.

McLaren has signed Danny Ric and Norris. I like this lineup!

Renault has signed Alonso & Ocon.

Racing Point already has Stroll & Perez signed through 2022 but Vettel may be too good to pass up. If he does sign with them, Perez is the odd man out since Stroll's dad is a big investor with the team.

Williams has George Russell signed through the end of 2021. Latifi is also signed with them, reportedly.

Alpha Tauri and Alfa Romeo have not firmed up their driver lineups, yet, but Albon will probably stay at Red Bull. So Gasly & Kvyat may stay at AT. Or not.

Apparently, Alfa's team boss was Hulk's old team boss in F3 and GP2, and they've been in contact for a few months, now. If he goes there, I'd guess Kimi will be out and Giovinazzi, who's a Ferrari stable driver, will stay put. But, Ferrari also has Mick Schumacher in its stable so they may swap them. Or Hulk may not get a drive and AR goes with Giovinazzi and Schumacher. Who knows?

Haas may not even be around next year. If they are, I wouldn't mind seeing two new drivers there.

[Duncan Glenday]

Agreed on all points.
...
McLaren has signed Danny Ric and Norris. I like this lineup!
...

Agreed!

Agreed on all points.
...
Haas may not even be around next year. If they are, I wouldn't mind seeing two new drivers there.

I really hope Haas doesn't leave - though I'm not a fan of either of their drivers.

(Steiner was fun on the Neflix series, though!)

[Hal...]

Regarding McLaren, I am so happy for Danny Ric, who's my favorite driver, from a personality standpoint (Rubens Barrichello was another driver I really liked; such a nice, pleasant guy). I hope the team can stay as competitive next year as they are this year... or even improve. I would love to see him get some good results.

And Norris has really shown some talent, hasn't he?


This reminds me of something. When you listen to a lot of commentators and former drivers on TV, they always talk about talent in terms of two tiers: the guys like Clark, Andretti, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumey, Alonso, Hamilton, et al, and then the rest.

I don't see it that way. I think in terms of three: the top tier, the rest, and then the guys who are definitely better than the rest but not quite as good as the top tier. Guys like Keke Rosberg, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill, Nico Rosberg, et al. I think Danny Ric is one of those middle tier guys, too.

Not sure where to place Kimi or Mika Häkkinen. I've seen Kimi do some amazing things but after his championship season, what happened? Was his championship a fluke or did he lose motivation to push himself? Mika is another mystery to me.

(Steiner was fun on the Neflix series, though!)

He really was, wasn't he?

I also loved the back and forth between Cyril Abiteboul (Renault's team principal) & Christian Horner. That was actually funny.

[Duncan Glenday]

Regarding McLaren, I am so happy for Danny Ric, who's my favorite driver, from a personality standpoint (Rubens Barrichello was another driver I really liked; such a nice, pleasant guy). I hope the team can stay as competitive next year as they are this year... or even improve. I would love to see him get some good results.

And Norris has really shown some talent, hasn't he?

McLaren's fall from grace a few years ago was almost as sad as Williams.

It's been gratifying to see them compete for the "best of the rest" in the last 2 years, and now even whuppin' Ferrari's butt on occasion.

Ricciardo is definitely the personality on the grid! I've always liked Hamilton though and don't share the widespread hatred of the guy. Listen to his post-race interviews. When he wins, his comments always mention the team, the fans, the folks back at the factory, and so on - well before he talks about his own race performance. No other driver does that. They're always "I this" and "I that"... I just wish he'd quit with the politics though. I do appreciate his position, but I don't appreciate any sports star using their sports platform to push their agenda. That's just me...

I've liked Norris since he started. I wasn't sure why Ferrari selected Sainz over Norris - their records were almost identical. I look forward to watching Norris do well. He's definitely one of the few drivers who could be a good foil for Verstappen - should that unlikely opportunity ever arise.

...
I also loved the back and forth between Cyril Abiteboul (Renault's team principal) & Christian Horner. That was actually funny.

I can never understand Cyril! He's super-intelligent, has great comments, and has good command of English vocabulary. But he speaks fast with a very thick French accent that I can rarely cut through.

...
Not sure where to place Kimi or Mika Häkkinen. I've seen Kimi do some amazing things but after his championship season, what happened? Was his championship a fluke or did he lose motivation to push himself? Mika is another mystery to me.
...

I think both of those Finns were at the top of their game when they won, and they had very competitive cars.

I also think that with a few obvious exceptions, the difference between driver-skills is less than we're led to believe. It's very common to see matching cars alongside each other on the grid. If the cars were more alike <cough>Indie </cough> we'd have a much clearer idea of the relative skills of each driver.

That's why I pay close attention to drivers' qualifying performances relative to their team mates.

[Duncan Glenday]

Anyway - I don't want to hijack the thread with deep analyses

FP1 and 2 today - but I always record the practices, qualifying, and the race itself - and watch when my wife and I have time.

So I'll be ignoring this thread for a while, to avoid spoilers!