F1 Racing

[Hal...]

A question I keep forgetting to ask: how has everyone been loving ESPN's use of Sky's coverage? My God, I can't believe it took this long for us to be able to watch a full race without commercials!!!!

So I'll be ignoring this thread for a while, to avoid spoilers!

Oh, I doubt anyone else watches practice so I think you're safe today.

I've always liked Hamilton though and don't share the widespread hatred of the guy. Listen to his post-race interviews. When he wins, his comments always mention the team, the fans, the folks back at the factory, and so on - well before he talks about his own race performance. No other driver does that. They're always "I this" and "I that"...

I don't hate him I just can't stand when a driver becomes so dominant. As I've said before, I didn't follow F1 very much when Schumey & Ferrari got so dominant.

The other issue I have with Lewis is that I question the genuineness of his humility. He says the right things but often behaves the opposite. Obviously, I don't really know what he's actually like. It's just a feeling. And he also still sometimes sounds like a 17 year old on the radio when things don't go his way.

And this probably isn't fair but I really resented how Ron Dennis elevated him to his #1 when he had a two time champion in the other seat (Alonso).

I've liked Norris since he started. I wasn't sure why Ferrari selected Sainz over Norris - their records were almost identical.

Really? I didn't know about their records. You've piqued my curiosity. As for Ferrari picking Sainz, I was thinking it was because Ferrari avoids British drivers, but after checking, they've had quite a few. The last, however, was Eddie Irvine in '99.

I can never understand Cyril! He's super-intelligent, has great comments, and has good command of English vocabulary. But he speaks fast with a very thick French accent that I can rarely cut through.

That's why I watched with the closed captions on.

I also think that with a few obvious exceptions, the difference between driver-skills is less than we're led to believe. It's very common to see matching cars alongside each other on the grid. If the cars were more alike <cough>Indie </cough> we'd have a much clearer idea of the relative skills of each driver.

That's why I pay close attention to drivers' qualifying performances relative to their team mates.

I get that. And one of the things I look at is the difference in qualifying times. Two cars from the same team may be side by side on the grid, but what was the difference in time? But I also know you can't discount how a driver sets up a car can impact their performance and the #1 driver's setup may not be conducive to the #2 driver's style. Still, your point is valid and by the end of the season, who's winning the qualifying battle in each team speaks volumes.

Anyway - I don't want to hijack the thread with deep analyses

Why not? I thought that's what this thread was for.

[Duncan Glenday]

...And he also still sometimes sounds like a 17 year old on the radio when things don't go his way.
...

That's true. But it's far more true of Vettel and Verstappen, who my wife calls "Whiner 1" and "Whiner 2"




More later - supposed to be working right now

[Duncan Glenday]

One of the best ways to evaluate a driver's capabilities is to see how well they qualify against their team mates. This eliminates race-day issues like breakdowns, crashes, bad team strategies, and other considerations beyond the driver's control.

The stats so far:

Merc:
Hamilton 4-2 Bottas

Ferrari:
Vettel 2-4 Leclerc

Red Bull:
Verstappen 6-0 Albon

McLaren:
Sainz 2-4 Norris

Renault:
Ricciardo 5-1 Ocon

Alpha Tauri:
Gasly 6-0 Kvyat

Pink:
Perez 2-2 Stroll / Hulkenberg 1-1 Stroll

Alfa Romeo:
Raikkonen 2-4 Giovinazzi

Haas:
Grosjean 2-4 Magnussen

Williams:
Russell 6-0 Latifi

[Duncan Glenday]

One of the things that pisses me off is the selection of drivers based on how much money they can bring into the team ... AKA "pay drivers".

It obviously assumes the drivers are top-tier, but there's no question that moneyed drivers have an easier path to F1.

Examples of drivers with huge sersonal sponsors:

Stroll (obvious)

Perez brings in around $15 million from Carlos Slim

Robert Kubica got his Williams drive, and is still a reserve driver for Alfa Romeo, because he brings millions / year from his Polish backers, PKN Orlen.

Lando Norris's dad is one of the 500 wealthiest people in Britain.

Latifi brings $$$ from the Royal Bank of Canada.

Personal sponsors kept Marcus Ericsson in Sauber until Alfa took over the main sponsorship and no longer needed Ericsson's sponsors.

Even Bottas had a (small) personal sponsor until recently (Kone cranes, from Finland, IIRC).

And - there have been MANY past drivers who independently brought $$ into their teams over the years, which - AFAIC - has kept many of the potentially best drivers out of the mix.

</rant>

[NogbadTheBad]

Agree, always seemed a bit weird. Rich mans game for sure.

[Hal...]

One of the best ways to evaluate a driver's capabilities is to see how well they qualify against their team mates.

Right. And as I said last week, "...one of the things I [also] look at is the difference in qualifying times. Two cars from the same team may be side by side on the grid, but what was the difference in time?"

In that regard, Lewis & Max show week in and week out they're superior drivers. Altho, Bottas gives Lewis a run for his money at times.

Also, something else I just remembered is that the head to head competition isn't the only way. I recall two drivers from years back, one who qualified well but didn't finish well and the other vice versa. I want to say the latter was Prost (indeed, after checking: 17% of races he started he had pole vs 57% for Fangio, 46% for Clark, 36% for Hamilton, and 22% for Schumacher). Actually, Alonso doesn't have a very good record of poles. As for the guy who qualified well but didn't finish well, I can't recall who that was, or even the era.

And you can't discount how well they drive in the rain. I seem to recall Eddie Cheever always doing really well in the rain. Lewis is good in the rain. Vettel's first win was in the rain at Monza - in a Toro Rosso.

One of the things that pisses me off...

I hear ya. The first time I heard about it was with one of the young guys driving for one of the "also rans" about 7-10 years ago. I was shocked because I had never heard of anything like this, before. And I don't recall the guy having any sponsors. He just had the money to buy a seat.

To play Devil's advocate, I also understand why teams do it because F1 is very expensive and if a team can bring in someone who already has sponsorship, it helps defray costs. And those drivers got those sponsorships because they already showed potential at a lower level.

For an American example, look at someone like Danica Patrick, who showed she could drive but not necessarily win. Her first season was with Rahal Letterman and her next team was with Andretti Green, both top tier teams. Even Bernie Ecclestone said that "to have someone like Danica Patrick in F1 would be a perfect advert."

Racing for us is a sport. For all those involved, it's a business... unfortunately.

What I don't understand is when someone who drove for a top tier team doesn't get his contract renewed and then gets picked up by a lower tier team. Kimi has been my favorite driver since his win in Japan in '05 (one of the all time great drives in F1), but he should have retired by now. He's just taking a seat a younger guy could have.

-------------------------

This is OT, so I will only mention one specific thing:

I was watching the Indy 500, Sunday, and after the last round of pit stops, they went to a commercial break with around 31 laps to go. We missed 5 laps during it. They came back and 2 laps later took their "final commercial break", for another 5 laps lost! WTF?!!!!!

How is it that ESPN can show an entire F1 race without a single commercial break and, yet, an American broadcast company can't go 20 minutes - at the end of the race! - without commercial breaks???

It must drive you ex-pats living in the US crazy.

[Hal...]

Rich mans game for sure.

Do you remember Peter Revson? His nickname was "Champagne Peter" because his mother owned Revco (pharmacy) and his father owned Revlon (makeup).

He lost his life at South African GP, iirc.

[Duncan Glenday]

Right. And as I said last week, "...one of the things I [also] look at is the difference in qualifying times. Two cars from the same team may be side by side on the grid, but what was the difference in time?"

In that regard, Lewis & Max show week in and week out they're superior drivers. Altho, Bottas gives Lewis a run for his money at times.

Yes, a valid metric. It shows up constantly in (e.g.) Verstappen vs Gasly, or more recently, vs. Albon.

There have often been drivers who are great at qualifying and not at racing - or vice versa. One of the best examples was Ronnie Petersen. No clue about the mechanics of his car, sucked at qualifying, but an inspired driver. The polar opposite to (e.g.) Lauda, at the time, who was good at qualifying and the mechanics loved his ability to analyze what was happening with the car at a very technical level.

To play Devil's advocate, I also understand why teams do it because F1 is very expensive and if a team can bring in someone who already has sponsorship, it helps defray costs. And those drivers got those sponsorships because they already showed potential at a lower level.

I do understand. E.g. Williams was in dire financial straits (until late last week, anyway) - hence 3 of their 4 recent drivers coming from Money: Latifi, Kubica, Stroll.

What I don't understand is when someone who drove for a top tier team doesn't get his contract renewed and then gets picked up by a lower tier team. Kimi has been my favorite driver since his win in Japan in '05 (one of the all time great drives in F1), but he should have retired by now. He's just taking a seat a younger guy could have.

I agree. Alonso was another example - leaving Ferrari for a lower team. And Vettel is about to be the next Kimi in that regard. They should step away quietly when they're on the top. I gave Rosberg huge props for stepping away the way he did.

Do you remember Peter Revson? His nickname was "Champagne Peter" because his mother owned Revco (pharmacy) and his father owned Revlon (makeup).

He lost his life at South African GP, iirc.

I do remember Revson, though I wasn't aware of his nickname. And yes, he died in practice at Kyalami. I was in high school at the time (mid-'70s), and went to the race the next day - and sat at one corner up from where his accident occurred.

And as you point out - the pay-drivers thing goes back to Revson's day, and probably way earlier. I remember a Van Opel guy in the '70s - grandson of the guy who created the Opel car - still being made in Germany today. (Many of the recent-day Buicks and Saturns were re-badged Opels.)

BTW Tom Price was also killed at Kyalami. I was there, and it happened right in front of me. I was (supposed to have been) a pre-med student at the time, and was working with the medics - great way to get into the pits for free! And I was one of the first on the scene at the body of the marshall he hit. (Long story...)


- - - - - -

Per your OT - I agree. And the 500 finishing under a safety car was a mess, IMO. I love the competitiveness of Indy, with its (comparative) one-design rules. I hate the format of the races, and the constant crash/safety-car/compress-the-pack/restart/crash....

[Hal...]

Alonso was another example - leaving Ferrari for a lower team. And Vettel is about to be the next Kimi in that regard. They should step away quietly when they're on the top. I gave Rosberg huge props for stepping away the way he did.

I was going to argue against your position on Alonso, but after checking, found out he's only a year younger than Kimi. Seb is only 33, younger than Lewis.

Something I'd forgotten about until you mentioned Alonso is what a commentator mentioned during the Indy 500: that Alonso said he had nothing to prove. So why go back? For the love of it. I often forget that while athletes are pros paid to do a job, ultimately they love "playing a sport" they've been playing since they were young. For drivers, they started in karts when they were kids. When I was a kid, I always wanted a go-kart and I finally got to drive a friend's when I was 12 or 13. I had so much fun. I can't even imagine what it's like for a F1 or Indy driver. I've heard guys like Seb and Lewis comment how fun it was battling for position for a dozen laps, even when they didn't gain the position. I cannot imagine how fun that must be.

Rosberg's a different story, I think. He retired at 31. And if you read his entry at Wikipedia (and read between the lines) regarding his rivalry with Lewis and the 2015-2016 seasons, I think he had to really dig deep to win the '16 driver's championship. I don't think it came as easily to him as it does to other drivers and I've always suspected he retired because he knew he couldn't compete with Lewis over the long term. Speculation, obviously.

I was in high school at the time (mid-'70s), and went to the race the next day - and sat at one corner up from where his accident occurred.

Are you from South Africa? Why did I think you were from Scotland?

BTW Tom Price was also killed at Kyalami. I was there, and it happened right in front of me. I was (supposed to have been) a pre-med student at the time, and was working with the medics - great way to get into the pits for free! And I was one of the first on the scene at the body of the marshall he hit. (Long story...)

Wow.

Man, I really envy people who got to see racing in the '70s. From what I remember, the only races shown on American TV when I was a kid were the Indy 500 (tape delayed) and the Daytona 500 (maybe another one or two). No endurance races (Sebring, Le Mans, etc) or Can-Am and definitely no F1. The first time I ever saw a F1 race was in '82 or '83, not sure which. The only names I remember from that first season I saw are Lauda, "the Little Professor" (Prost), Rosberg, Watson, and Andrea de Crasheris . Of course, '82 was the year Rosberg won the DC. I joined the Coast Guard in '83 and didn't see a single race until '87; I got to see most of that season. I followed the '88-'89 seasons but viewership was spotty for me after I got out in '90, because (a) I didn't know where to find the schedule and (b) finding a race in the TV guide was near impossible since you had to be fanatical about checking it every week to see when a race might be on. Thankfully, for races in far away time zones, they started showing re-broadcasts on Sunday night.

Fortunately for me, tho, CART became the most competitive racing series from '90-'95. You probably remember when F1 turned into nothing but a "train" of cars with ever increasing interval times; i.e. passing became rare. And then Tony George, the CEO of Indianapolis Motor Speedway, had to go and fuck everything up by starting the IRL. Open wheel racing in the US hasn't been the same since.

Anyway, I've talked to guys I've met here at PE who remember seeing guys like Andretti (who I only knew from Indy), Ronnie Peterson, Jody Scheckter, Alan Jones, Gilles Villeneuve, and James Hunt. Of course, those guys grew up in Canada, England, Italy, and Belgium. I assume TV coverage of F1 has been around for a long time outside of the US. Yes?

I don't know if you're aware of this but part of the problem was that there was a cultural rivalry between the US and the rest of the world. F1 drivers, fans, and journalists dismissed American drivers because all they had to do was "turn left" - - not knowing about USAC's series and forgetting about guys like Phil Hill, Carroll Shelby, Dan Gurney, Peter Revson, Mark Donohue, et al. Many American drivers got an attitude about "foreign" drivers because of their condescension and after F1 teams switched to rear-engined cars and started blowing away the American cars at the Indy 500, which used to be on the F1 schedule. That's where my dad saw Jimmy Clark the first time.

- - - - - -

Per your OT - I agree. And the 500 finishing under a safety car was a mess, IMO. I love the competitiveness of Indy, with its (comparative) one-design rules. I hate the format of the races, and the constant crash/safety-car/compress-the-pack/restart/crash....

Well, if you grew up outside the US, you never saw some of the horrific crashes at Indy like I did, some of which could have been avoided. I do think they sometimes go overboard with yellow flags, tho. A few years ago a car lost power and the driver parked it down next to the inside wall. The car was well out of the way and posed no danger. They threw the yellow, anyway. smh

This year's finishing under the yellow was okay, I thought. First of all, like in F1, those cars are made of carbon fiber which can cut a tire instantly. And as you know after an accident, there are pieces of cf all over the track, just like in F1. The real danger of the Indy 500 has always been speed. Where in F1 do you see a car get up to 350-355 kph? And they're running that speed the entire time at Indy. Cut a tire at that speed and that's a recipe for disaster.

Another real danger at Indy is simply the number of cars all jockeying for position. This clip is from the Paul Newman movie, Winning, but the clip of the crash is actual footage from the 1966 Indy 500; fortunately, there were no bad injuries:



Incidentally, Chuck Rodee died during qualifying for that race.

1973 is usually considered the worst year for really bad accidents and fatalities:

Art Pollard died from a crash during the first day of time trials.

After a really bad crash at the start, Salt Walther "suffered burns over 40% of his body, mostly on his left leg, which had to have numerous surgeries for the rest of his life. Walther's most severe injuries were to his hands - the fingers on his left hand had to be partially amputated, and those on his crushed right hand eventually healed into unnatural angles." (Wikipedia). If you look closely, you can see his legs stinking out of the front of his car as it slides to a stop. Eleven spectators were injured in that crash.

Swede Savage had an equally horrific crash on lap 58 that broke his car in two. His doctor said he contracted hepatitis B from tainted plasma that caused his liver to fail. According to his family, however, he had burns to his lungs from inhaling fumes from his burning car. He died 34 days later.

One of the crew members of Savage's teammate ran to his aid and was struck by a fire truck rushing to the accident, killing him instantly.




So, now you might begin to understand their cautious nature.


This post turned out to be much longer than I intended. Sorry.

[SteveSly]

Regarding the Indy 500 finish under yellow this year, I thought the same thing when it happened, but another race fan that I know pointed out that the barrier going into pit lane had been destroyed with the crash that had happened earlier in the race. The officials were afraid that if they had a green / white / checker finish and someone hit that barrier that it could be too much of a safety risk.

Regarding the speeds at Indy, they have been regulated since the mid-90's. If I remember correctly the 4 lap record stands at around 237 MPH. That kind of speed is just way too fast especially when you have 33 cars doing it at the same time.

You mentioned Art Pollard. When I was a kid Art drove for Gilmour Racing which was based out of my hometown of Kalamazoo Michigan. When I was 8 years old I got to meet Art and he let me sit in his car. You talk about a thrill for a little kid. I still have a framed autographed picture that he gave me. As you mentioned Pollard was killed at Indy a few years later. It really shook me up when it happened.

[Duncan Glenday]

Are you from South Africa? Why did I think you were from Scotland?

Scottish, but grew up in Africa But the USA is now "home".

...you never saw some of the horrific crashes at Indy...

No, that's true. I wasn't aware of the history you described - it's an eye opener! Not surprising, though. Back in the '70s and '80s it seemed that a death per year was an acceptable risk in F1. The safety technology that's been developed in the last few decades in Indy and in F1 has been impressive! (I hate the halos in both open wheel formats, but understand the need and would not advocate for eliminating them.)

...there was a cultural rivalry between the US and the rest of the world. F1 drivers, fans, and journalists dismissed American drivers...

"Was"?

I think that rivalry (or at least, a mutual misunderstanding) still exists. I can't tell you how many Americans I've told about F1. They have a hard time believing me when I tell them that running just 2 typical F1 teams costs about as much as running every team in Indy.

In my mind there's clearly a place for both formats, and they each have their pros and cons. I guess I'm more attached to F1 because I've seen a lot of it over the years, grew up in "the colonies", and have a huge appreciation of the technology, as well as the drivers and everything else that makes up 'the show'

Regarding the Indy 500 finish under yellow this year...

In fairness, Sato deserved his win!

BTW - he's a former unsuccessful F1 driver

Which leads to another thing: Cross-over drivers!

In completely random order, just a few of the F1 drivers that I recall who retired into Indy are: Chilton, Fabi, Mehri, Ericsson, Graham Hill, Villeneuve, Jim Clark, Montoya, Andretti (junior), Rossi ... and dozens more - and of course, Alonso. But Mario Andretti has special significance, as the only F1 world champion who started as an Indy driver (as far as I'm aware, anyway!)




BTW - Le Mans : 9/19 and 9/20

I always watch, though I'm nowhere near as close to it as I am to F1. I had hoped to be there this year - planned to catch it, and at least 1 or 2 stages of the Tour de France. But ... Covid Maybe next year...

[Isabella1996]

I used to watch F1 every season until they have changed the engines to 1.6. My lawnmower sounds better. Now Hamilton keeps dominating and it's boring like the seasons with Schumacher. All I've got now are MotoGP and WRC. Anyone agrees with me?

[Sunlight Caller]

I have been watching F1 as long as I can remember, and certainly back to the classic Lauda v Hunt season that is immortalised in the movie Rush. I still watch each race, but it has lost a lot of the thrill for me, and all of the major overtaking moves seem to play out in the pit lane rather than on the track. I have been to the British Grand Prix a number of times, but not for management a year now.

I’m enjoying reading your expert information and memories of seasons past, but I cannot contribute here on the same level as you guys!

[Duncan Glenday]

I used to watch F1 every season until they have changed the engines to 1.6. My lawnmower sounds better. Now Hamilton keeps dominating and it's boring like the seasons with Schumacher. All I've got now are MotoGP and WRC. Anyone agrees with me?

I'm not a fan of the new "Power Units", though I have to admit that:
1) They're now as fast as the old "engines" used to be (even if they sound worse than your lawn mower )
2) The technologies they're developing will trickle down to what we drive. Which, AFAIC, is one of the reasons I think F1 is not just fun, but also important.

US TV has just now started showing MotoGP races. I used to watch the equivalent series many years ago (it wasn't called MotoGP back then) - and as a former motorcyclist, I'm enjoying what I've seen this year!

I have been watching F1 as long as I can remember, and certainly back to the classic Lauda v Hunt season that is immortalised in the movie Rush. I still watch each race, but it has lost a lot of the thrill for me, and all of the major overtaking moves seem to play out in the pit lane rather than on the track. I have been to the British Grand Prix a number of times, but not for management a year now.

I’m enjoying reading your expert information and memories of seasons past, but I cannot contribute here on the same level as you guys!

Chris, you're right about the strategies being in the pit - but an announcement today has me looking forward to one more very high speed race this year, in which there should be a lot of actual overtaking. (Remember overtaking? )

F1 to use Bahrain’s ‘outer track’ for Sakhir Grand Prix, sub-60s laps expected
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...scR1BMpx8.html

image.jpg

[Hal...]

When I was a kid Art drove for Gilmour Racing which was based out of my hometown of Kalamazoo Michigan. When I was 8 years old I got to meet Art and he let me sit in his car. You talk about a thrill for a little kid.

Very cool! I would love to sit in an F1 or Indycar but I'm too tall (I still remember a dream I had when I got to drive Nelson Piquet's Williams in a race. lol). Duncan & Chris may remember this: when Eddie Cheever was still in F1 there was a trend to make the cockpits smaller and smaller and because of his height (~6 ft), he couldn't stand after getting out of his car because his legs were partially numb. After parking his car after the engine quit, he climbed out and actually collapsed.

Scottish, but grew up in Africa But the USA is now "home".

Knew everything but the Africa part.

No, that's true. I wasn't aware of the history you described - it's an eye opener! Not surprising, though. Back in the '70s and '80s it seemed that a death per year was an acceptable risk in F1.

Yeah, the '70s and early '80s were especially dangerous for racing. The '60s, too, but they weren't running nearly as fast. For much of the '70s, cars were little more than a '60s car with wings and more powerful engines. And a lot of talented drivers lost their lives in the '70s: Jochen Rindt, Mark Donohue, Revson, Peterson, and Gilles Villeneuve. There were only two more in the '80s, neither of whose names I recognize.

The safety technology that's been developed in the last few decades in Indy and in F1 has been impressive! (I hate the halos in both open wheel formats, but understand the need and would not advocate for eliminating them.)

Yeah, it's been amazing. The HANS device was used first in Indycar, which was rare since tech and safety is usually developed in F1 first. The halo came about because of Bianchi's demise, wasn't it?

In my mind there's clearly a place for both formats, and they each have their pros and cons.

If Indycar can continue, which at this point it looks like it will. But open wheel racing in N America has taken a major hit after the IRL/CART split. Viewership, attendance, and sponsorship has been down ever since. Hopefully, with Roger Penske owning Indy now, they can get things back on track. And if they can design cars that aren't so hard to balance at the super speedways, I might even start tuning in again.

I guess I'm more attached to F1 because I've seen a lot of it over the years, grew up in "the colonies", and have a huge appreciation of the technology, as well as the drivers and everything else that makes up 'the show'

I am, too, because I don't watch Indycar anymore. Plus, the rules changes they've come up with in the past 10-15 years to make passing easier has made it more interesting to watch.

BTW - he's a former unsuccessful F1 driver

Oh yeah, I definitely remember Taku from F1. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was the most successful Japanese driver in F1, wasn't he?

In completely random order, just a few of the F1 drivers that I recall who retired into Indy are: Chilton, Fabi, Mehri, Ericsson, Graham Hill, Villeneuve, Jim Clark, Montoya, Andretti (junior), Rossi ... and dozens more - and of course, Alonso. But Mario Andretti has special significance, as the only F1 world champion who started as an Indy driver (as far as I'm aware, anyway!)

You've forgotten some and some actually started in Indycar:
• Graham Hill never actually drove in Indycar. He drove in the Indy 500 because it was on the F1 schedule for a number of years. The same for Jimmy Clark. Both won the Indy 500, btw.
• Michael Andretti, Montoya, and Jacques Villeneuve all started in Indycar, got a drive in F1, and went back to Indycar. Montoya & Villeneuve retired from Nascar, iirc.
• Alex Zanardi started in F1, switched to Indycar, went back to F1, and finished in Indycar after a horrendous crash that required his legs to be partially amputated.
• Sebastian Bourdais started in Indycar, got a seat in F1 with Toro Rosso for a couple of years, and went back to Indycar. Not sure of his current status.
• Nigel Mansell switched to Indycar after Frank Williams wouldn't give him a salary commensurate with a championship winning driver. Do you remember the press conference when Nigel announced he was leaving? During the press conference, some guy from Williams came in and handed Nigel a note, presumably another offer that might make Nigel happy, and Nigel just waved him off. Nigel was having none of it! After Indycar, he went back to F1 and drove for Ferrari. "Il Leone" (The Lion) as the tifosi called him. I used to love Nigel (before he got too full of himself). One of the greatest passes I've ever seen was when Nigel passed Gerhard Berger (in a Ferrari) on the outside of a turn at either Monza or the Mexican GP, I forget which. David Hobbs, the color commentator, said, "you can't do that!!"
• Emerson Fittipaldi started in F1 and switched to Indycar.
• Mark Donohue, an Indy 500 winner, started in Indycar and Can-Am, and switched to F1. He lost his life during practice at the Austrian GP.
• Peter Revson tried to get a full time ride in F1, then drove in Indycar and Can-Am full time, drove in endurance races, finished 5th at Indy his rookie year, and finally got back to F1 in the early '70s. What I didn't know until I looked him up on Wikipedia is that he was cut off from the family fortune when he dropped out of college and took up racing in the early '60s.
• Almost forgot Eddie Cheever, who started as a test driver for Ferrari, got a full time ride with a few teams, and finished with Arrows. He won the Indy 500 in '98. Good driver but a great color commentator.
• Mauricio Guglemin started in F1 and switched to Indycar.
• Dan Gurney drove both but I don't know which he started in.

Mario and Jacques Villeneuve are the only F1 champs who started in Indycar. But there are 5 total who won both the Indy 500 and the F1 driver's championship: Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Mario, Emerson Fittipaldi, and J Villeneuve. And there are only 3 drivers who won both the Indycar and F1 championship: Mario, Fittipaldi, and Villeneuve.

Who I always liked are the guys who drove in anything and everything. Gurney, Mario, Donohue, Revson, Jacky Ickx, et al.

Remember Ickx? He only had 8 wins in F1 but finished 2nd in points, and won Le Mans 6 times! After checking Wikipedia, I see he also won the Can-Am championship in '79 and the Paris-Dakar Rally in '83. I never got to see him drive but I've seen numerous interviews with him and anyone who can win Le Mans 6x is "the man" in my book.

Gurney never won the Indy 500 but he won Le Mans in '67, had 4 wins in F1, and raced in the Trans-Am series and Nascar. "In 1980, Gurney came out of a 10-year retirement to help old friend Les Richter, the president of Riverside. Gurney agreed to drive a second Chevrolet for one NASCAR race as teammate to 1979 rookie of the year Dale Earnhardt. For added publicity and supposedly as a condition of allowing Gurney to drive in the race after a 10-year layoff, Richter insisted that Gurney attend the racing school run by former teammate and friend Bob Bondurant (Gurney and Bondurant had shared the GT-class-winning Cobra Daytona coupe at Le Mans in 1964). After Gurney's refresher session, Richter called Bondurant and asked how Gurney had done. 'He didn't need a refresher,' Bondurant reportedly told Richter. 'He was faster than me then, and he still is.'" That makes me laugh.

Mario won the Indy 500 ('69), the F1 championship ('78), the Indycar championship ('65, '66, '69, '84), the Daytona 500 ('67), and at Le Mans finished 3rd (with son Michael) in '83 and 2nd overall (1st in class) in '95... at the age of 55.

[SteveSly]

Which leads to another thing: Cross-over drivers!

In completely random order, just a few of the F1 drivers that I recall who retired into Indy are: Chilton, Fabi, Mehri, Ericsson, Graham Hill, Villeneuve, Jim Clark, Montoya, Andretti (junior), Rossi ... and dozens more - and of course, Alonso. But Mario Andretti has special significance, as the only F1 world champion who started as an Indy driver (as far as I'm aware, anyway!)

..

Let's not forget Nigel Mansel. I once went to a 500 mile Indy Car race here in Michigan where I saw him lap the entire field. It was a boring race, but an impressive feat. I think Montoya may be the only driver to have won races in F-1, Indycar, and NASCAR which is pretty amazing.


I have said this here before, but although road racing exists in many forms in the U.S., unlike the rest of the world, by far the biggest tradition here is the oval. There are dozens of oval tracks in every state in the country and typically only a few road courses. On any given Friday or Saturday night there are oval tracks (both dirt and paved) that serve as the minor leagues for Indy Car and NASCAR. Road racing has a following too, but is not at the same level I don't think F-1 has ever really gained much of a foothold here for that reason. NASCAR is not nearly as popular as it was 20 years ago, and Indycar has never recovered from the IRL / CART split, but oval racing still is the king here which is part of the reason I don't think there has any been any great F-1 drivers from the States.

[SteveSly]

Let's not forget Nigel Mansel. I once went to a 500 mile Indy Car race here in Michigan where I saw him lap the entire field. It was a boring race, but an impressive feat. I think Montoya may be the only driver to have won races in F-1, Indycar, and NASCAR which is pretty amazing.


I have said this here before, but although road racing exists in many forms in the U.S., unlike the rest of the world, by far the biggest tradition here is the oval. There are dozens of oval tracks in every state in the country and typically only a few road courses. On any given Friday or Saturday night there are oval tracks (both dirt and paved) that serve as the minor leagues for Indy Car and NASCAR. Road racing has a following too, but is not at the same level I don't think F-1 has ever really gained much of a foothold here for that reason. NASCAR is not nearly as popular as it was 20 years ago, and Indycar has never recovered from the IRL / CART split, but oval racing still is the king here which is part of the reason I don't think there has any been any great F-1 drivers from the States.

Oops......I forgot the Mario won the Daytona 500 too.

[SteveSly]

If Indycar can continue, which at this point it looks like it will. But open wheel racing in N America has taken a major hit after the IRL/CART split. Viewership, attendance, and sponsorship has been down ever since. Hopefully, with Roger Penske owning Indy now, they can get things back on track. And if they can design cars that aren't so hard to balance at the super speedways, I might even start tuning in again.
f 55.

I think part of the problem with Indy Car is there are just not that many drivers anymore. I am a big fan of Sprint Car racing. It used to be that many of the top young sprint car guys would eventually move up to Indy Car. You hardly never see that happen anymore. Instead of going the open wheel route they almost always go to the NASCAR route these days. Years ago we used to go to the time trials for the Indy 500 (we live about 4 hours from Indianapolis). They used to get 200,000 people there just for the time trials, and would have 50 cars or more vying for 33 spots. Today, they pull in field fillers just to fill out the lineup with a good chunk of them not even close to being competitive. Most regular season Indy car races have 18 cars or less in the lineups. Compare that to NASCAR who offer 43 cars per race, plus more races and more money. They also have two minor league series for development (Xfinity and the truck series). Indy Car has the Indy Lights for their minor leagues, but again they seem to struggle for cars.

[SteveSly]

• Mark Donohue, an Indy 500 winner, started in Indycar and Can-Am, and switched to F1. He lost his life during practice at the Austrian GP.

I forgot about Donahue. My one and only time that I have been to the Indy 500 was the year he won. I think it was 1972. I was just a young buck of 11 at the time and went with my dad.

[Hal...]

Let's not forget Nigel Mansel. I once went to a 500 mile Indy Car race here in Michigan where I saw him lap the entire field. It was a boring race, but an impressive feat.

All but one, actually. Mario was on the lead lap, too. I remember that race. Mario and Nigel both drove for Haas (Nigel took Michael's seat when he went to F1) and Mario got pole w/Nigel second. But Nigel was on fire that season. I can't remember how far back Mario was, tho.

Do you remember the commercial with him, Mario, and AJ?

I think Montoya may be the only driver to have won races in F-1, Indycar, and NASCAR which is pretty amazing.

Dan Gurney also won in all three: 4 in F1, 7 in Indycar ('67-'70, called the USAC Championship, then), and 5 in Nascar (all at Riverside, a road course; he never drove full time in Nascar). He also finished 1st at the '67 Le Mans (with A.J. Foyt), 2nd at the Indy 500 in '68 & '69 and 3rd in '70, and 1st at the '59 Sebring (the 12 hour race).

Mario won in all three, as well as 1st in class at Le Mans (2nd overall), the Daytona 500, the 6 Hours of Daytona (with Jacky Ickx; for some reason that year it was 6 not 24 hours), and Sebring 5x. He also won a bunch of sprint car races with his twin brother. Mario also won the Pikes Peak Hill Climb race in '69.

I have said this here before, but although road racing exists in many forms in the U.S., unlike the rest of the world, by far the biggest tradition here is the oval.

That's true but the year Nigel won the Indycar series, 10 of 16 races were on road courses. Even as early as '83, when CART was still in its infancy, nearly half the races were on road courses.

I don't think F-1 has ever really gained much of a foothold here for that reason.

I would suggest it has to do with two, related, things:
1. The lack of media coverage of the F1 season due to most of the races being outside the US. I've seen clips of the 1970s F1 race at Watkins Glen, held there from '61-'80, and the place was packed with spectators. But like the Indy 500, I don't think most of them were real racing fans. How could they be? Media coverage of F1 in the US back in the day was practically nil. Races weren't shown on TV until sometime in the '80s. For years, even the Indy 500 was tape delayed. I think it was just an excuse to go party and watch cars go really fast.
2. Lack of coverage of drivers due to nearly all not being from the US. Consequently, most fans wouldn't know who to root for and I'd bet most American fans had never heard of Jackie Stewart (well, maybe), Ronnie Peterson, Carlos Reutemann, Niki Lauda, or James Hunt. In other words, nothing to tie them to the race, emotionally.

F1 has always been Eurocentric and we know little about what goes on in Europe... other than the Royal Family. lol

I forgot about Donahue. My one and only time that I have been to the Indy 500 was the year he won. I think it was 1972. I was just a young buck of 11 at the time and went with my dad.

That would have been a great year to be there. He was my brother's favorite driver for a long time.

[Hal...]

Did you guys catch qualifying for Monza? What a mess. And the commentators from Sky were cracking me up.

[NogbadTheBad]

Missed it, what happened?

[Hal...]

In Q3, for their second run, just about everyone came out of the pits at the same time. Mercedes were the first out so they didn't have any problems but most of the rest were tripping over each other, jockeying for position, passing each other, messing up each other's qualifying times, etc. It was total chaos. It was like amateur hour. David Croft & Martin Brundle found it somewhat amusing and I think it was Karun Chandhok who made some kind of funny comment but then Ted Kravitz's comments were really funny. Unfortunately, I can't remember anything anyone said.


As for the race... That. Was. Awesome!!!

Most enjoyable race I've seen since, maybe, Monza '08, when Vettel won in a Toro Rosso in the rain.

[NogbadTheBad]

That was a bonkers race, Botas & Verstapen going backwards at the start, both Ferraris breaking, Mercedes costing Lewis the race with penalty on the pit lane entry, very happy for Gasly, how the hell does Albon keep that seat? Terrific for McLaren.

[Hal...]

Yeah, it was bonkers alright. This is the funnest weekend I've had in ages.

...how the hell does Albon keep that seat?

What I'd like to know is what's wrong with that seat? Gasly had it and lost it. Albon showed promise last year (I championed him for the seat over Gasly after having some good results in the Alpha Tauri) but his results have been mixed. Prior to that, Kvyat was the #2 to Riccicardo and couldn't do anything with it. Max replaced him and Daniel left.

If I was a driver at Alpha Tauri and was offered the #2 seat at Red Bull, I'd be like, "thanks, but no thanks."