Is Genesis "Selling England by the Pound" the most perfect Prog album ever?

[JJ88]

In the interview that came with this boxed set a decade or so ago, Phil mistakenly refers to the track as Aisle Of Plenty before saying he doesn't remember it. My guess is that he hasn't listened to it since it was recorded...

Especially as those were the two songs which they never played live. And he also points out how much from the album became live favourites over the years.

It's worth noting that 'I Know What I Like' sold well in the UK as a single. And that single's B side was the first time 'Twilight Alehouse' was widely available, despite being played on TV/radio already and released as a flexidisc. (I am not sure the original single mix of '...Alehouse' has ever been on CD...I read the other day that the single didn't have Hackett's guitar work on the intro, I checked an original single on YouTube and sure enough, that's right.)

http://www.45cat.com/record/nonumber-4

[ThomasKDye]

Honestly, the bit I never cared for until recently is the longish twelve-string-and-flute bit between the two "Take a little trip back with Father Tiresias" choruses in "Cinema Show." It's always felt dull, meandery and ultimately meaningless. The "Na na na na's" didn't help either as I've never been wild about vocalists singing nonsense syllables (felt the same way about the "la la's" in "South Side of the Sky.")

I've recently come around to liking it better as a "respite," but I still sort of zone out when it comes on.

[aith01]

Not in my universe.....

Nor mine. It's a fun song, and especially in the live setting on the WCD and 2007 tours IMO.

On the When In Rome DVD when they do that song and Phil dances with the tambourine, the huge video screen behind Phil shows footage of him doing that during the 70s (I think) and it's a nice moment. Bittersweet, I suppose, seeing the "then and now" comparison.

It's also nice how they have other video clips showing, including some of Steve, from that time period. Kinda tugs on my heartstrings.

[ThomasKDye]

Nor mine. It's a fun song, and especially in the live setting on the WCD and 2007 tours IMO.

On the When In Rome DVD when they do that song and Phil dances with the tambourine, the huge video screen behind Phil shows footage of him doing that during the 70s (I think) and it's a nice moment. Bittersweet, I suppose, seeing the "then and now" comparison.

It's one of the few songs where the post-Gabriel live versions tend to have it all over the studio version, with the little jams and quotes from "Stagnation" and "Blood on the Rooftops" thrown in.

[aith01]

It's one of the few songs where the post-Gabriel live versions tend to have it all over the studio version, with the little jams and quotes from "Stagnation" and "Blood on the Rooftops" thrown in.

Oh right, I completely forgot about the Stagnation reprise! Love that part.

[Progatron]

It's one of the few songs where the post-Gabriel live versions tend to have it all over the studio version, with the little jams and quotes from "Stagnation" and "Blood on the Rooftops" thrown in.

Which parts of Blood On The Rooftops are thrown in? I've always heard the little Dancing With The Moonlit Knight guitar part and of course the Stagnation melody, but unless my memory is failing, I've never noticed Blood On The Rooftops in there...

[JJ88]

^It's definitely there, as is 'Visions Of Angels'. ('Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood' is in there somewhere too.) It's the keyboard motif after 'on some nation's fate'/'has found a new face again' which Banks quotes on Seconds Out.

Oh right, I completely forgot about the Stagnation reprise! Love that part.

That's a very moving part on the When In Rome show.

[ThomasKDye]

the little Dancing With The Moonlit Knight guitar part

Now THERE is where I went, "Wait a minute, where is that... OH! The diddly-diddly bit Hackett does after he stops the main guitar line! Oh yeah! Whaddya know 'bout that..."

That's a very moving part on the When In Rome show.

I just love the little knowing smile on Phil's face as he turns the mike towards the audience, as if to say, "Yeah, I think you got this..."

[aith01]

That's a very moving part on the When In Rome show.

Very much so.

[happytheman]

I've always loved After The Ordeal. BTW it wasn't only Banks who didn't want it on the album, Gabriel didn't either. But as Banks said, in the end they compromised and put everything on.

In the interview that came with this boxed set a decade or so ago, Phil mistakenly refers to the track as Aisle Of Plenty before saying he doesn't remember it. My guess is that he hasn't listened to it since it was recorded... I've seen his memory play tricks on him before in interviews. That story he tells about the guys on the Weather Report tour bus liking a Genesis track has sometimes been Squonk and other times been Follow You Follow Me!

I want to say I read somewhere that the track Tony didn't want included was Aisle of Plenty vs After the Ordeal.. Aisle of Plenty has Gabriel all over it.. could be in Armando's I Know What I Like book released back in the early 80's.. but I know I read it somewhere..

[Progatron]

I want to say I read somewhere that the track Tony didn't want included was Aisle of Plenty vs After the Ordeal.. Aisle of Plenty has Gabriel all over it.. could be in Armando's I Know What I Like book released back in the early 80's.. but I know I read it somewhere..

It's definitely After The Ordeal, he's been quite adamant about it in interviews.

[Zappathustra]

I wouldn't touch a single thing in this fantastic album. A rock record has its own energy field and changing a little detail disturbs the balance. Why on earth would anyone dare to do that with an album we all clearly love?

[ronmac]

I wouldn't touch a single thing in this fantastic album. A rock record has its own energy field and changing a little detail disturbs the balance. Why on earth would anyone dare to do that with an album we all clearly love?

You can't take anything away without leaving a hole.

[yesstiles]

I want to say I read somewhere that the track Tony didn't want included was Aisle of Plenty vs After the Ordeal.. Aisle of Plenty has Gabriel all over it..

It was the second half of "Cinema Show" (the long instrumental part) that Gabriel didn't want included, not "After the Ordeal."

[Frankh]

I wouldn't touch a single thing in this fantastic album. A rock record has its own energy field and changing a little detail disturbs the balance. Why on earth would anyone dare to do that with an album we all clearly love?

Utter and complete agreement.

A very, very beautiful album.

[Progatron]

It was the second half of "Cinema Show" (the long instrumental part) that Gabriel didn't want included, not "After the Ordeal."

He didn't want After The Ordeal either. He and Banks were against it.

[Trane]

SEBTP is a fine, fine album. After The Ordeal is a gorgeous track. Really, the only song I don't care for is Wardrobe. It's a throw away.

As much as Wardrobe is not one of the strongest musical point/track on the concept of SEBTP, it's definitely an essential point in the storyline (at first when I bought the album at age 11, it was nearly the only thing I liked with Firth >> Things would click when I bought Trick-Tail)

I wouldn't touch a single thing in this fantastic album. A rock record has its own energy field and changing a little detail disturbs the balance. Why on earth would anyone dare to do that with an album we all clearly love?

Because it has a very weak spot, called More Fool Me... It's not that it's bad per se as a song, but it's got nothing to do there, both musically and in the album's storyline. Take that one track out and insert Twilight Alehouse, and now you've got the perfect album, provided that the lyrics were altered to fit the UK's imperial decline.

Anynie know where I could find Twilight Alehouse's lyrics, BTW?

[JJ88]

'Twilight Alehouse' was too long to fit on the album, which was 50 odd minutes as it was. It was also an old song by then (you can hear a bit of it in one of the instrumental passages on From Genesis To Revelation). It's grown on me a lot over the years, although I still dislike that cackling Gabriel does after 'so cold'!

[yesstiles]

He didn't want After The Ordeal either. He and Banks were against it.

Sorry I meant:

It was the second half of "Cinema Show" (the long instrumental part) that Gabriel didn't want included, not "Aisle of Plenty."

[yesstiles]

As much as Wardrobe is not one of the strongest musical point/track on the concept of SEBTP, it's definitely an essential point in the storyline (at first when I bought the album at age 11, it was nearly the only thing I liked with Firth >> Things would click when I bought Trick-Tail)



Because it has a very weak spot, called More Fool Me... It's not that it's bad per se as a song, but it's got nothing to do there, both musically and in the album's storyline. Take that one track out and insert Twilight Alehouse, and now you've got the perfect album, provided that the lyrics were altered to fit the UK's imperial decline.

Anynie know where I could find Twilight Alehouse's lyrics, BTW?

Ee Gads no. "Twilight Alehouse" is terrible. The only blight imo on Genesis' stellar track record with Gabriel in the 70's. That chorus is cringe-worthy.

[Halmyre]

Ee Gads no. "Twilight Alehouse" is terrible. The only blight imo on Genesis' stellar track record with Gabriel in the 70's. That chorus is cringe-worthy.

Worse than "Counting Out Time"?

[Trench]

SEBTP is deffo in my top ten, but number 1 not so sure.
I would rate foxtrot and nursery cryme higher.
Others to consider above it................
Dark side of the moon
voyage of the acolyte
And for sheer beauty Camels "the snow goose"

[Progatron]

'Twilight Alehouse' was too long to fit on the album, which was 50 odd minutes as it was. It was also an old song by then (you can hear a bit of it in one of the instrumental passages on From Genesis To Revelation). It's grown on me a lot over the years, although I still dislike that cackling Gabriel does after 'so cold'!

Twilight Alehouse was indeed old by then, and in fact the band said that by the time they actually recorded it in the studio, it was played out and lost its magic (it was in the live set off and on for quite a while.) It was even part of Phil's audition!

Ee Gads no. "Twilight Alehouse" is terrible. The only blight imo on Genesis' stellar track record with Gabriel in the 70's. That chorus is cringe-worthy.

I like it, chorus and all!

Worse than "Counting Out Time"?

It wasn't until I heard Steve Hackett say that the song needed more of a hook than that chorus (the simple guitar part after "without you what would a poor boy do?") that I realized why I felt that song was missing something all these years. I could never put my finger on it, but I think he's right. It's a funny set of lyrics but I don't think the arrangement works. Weird choice for a single too, but they released it...

[proggy_jazzer]

Honestly, the bit I never cared for until recently is the longish twelve-string-and-flute bit between the two "Take a little trip back with Father Tiresias" choruses in "Cinema Show." It's always felt dull, meandery and ultimately meaningless. The "Na na na na's" didn't help either as I've never been wild about vocalists singing nonsense syllables (felt the same way about the "la la's" in "South Side of the Sky.")

I've recently come around to liking it better as a "respite," but I still sort of zone out when it comes on.

For me that section - and many others like it across the 70s catalog - absolutely define the music of Genesis.

[JJ88]

Twilight Alehouse was indeed old by then, and in fact the band said that by the time they actually recorded it in the studio, it was played out and lost its magic (it was in the live set off and on for quite a while.) It was even part of Phil's audition!

I think the earliest documented version was for a 1972 Belgian TV show, Rock Of The 70s. The next was for their last BBC session, also in 1972.

It wasn't until I heard Steve Hackett say that the song needed more of a hook than that chorus (the simple guitar part after "without you what would a poor boy do?") that I realized why I felt that song was missing something all these years. I could never put my finger on it, but I think he's right. It's a funny set of lyrics but I don't think the arrangement works. Weird choice for a single too, but they released it...

I think the lyric is too tied to The Lamb... concept to have connected with the pop audience, but 'Carpet Crawlers' would still have been a far better choice. At least it had a genuinely catchy chorus hook ('we gotta get in to get out').