Is Genesis "Selling England by the Pound" the most perfect Prog album ever?

[Progatron]

It's interesting that certain other band members have expressed indifference towards the album because it was very well represented in their concerts.

True - for many tours to come, Firth Of Fifth and The Cinema Show remained huge stage classics, and of course I Know What I Like (even that was stretched out to form a lengthy piece.) That's a pretty decent chunk of the album!

Epping, More Fool Me and the full Moonlit Knight were dropped from the set after this tour (well, all of the Selling England tracks were dropped for the Lamb tour but the big ones soon made their way back on the following tour.)

Phil likes the album, and we know it's Steve's favourite. The Charterhouse lads don't rank it as highly, and I agree that's a bit strange considering its huge place in their live history.

[DocProgger]

The fact that the instrumental parts of Cinema Show and frequently Firth of Fifth were a constant in the medleys, even all through the 80s, belies any 'indifference' imo. (Plus Firth was played in full on the Abacab Tour). Cinema Show specifically showcases what would become the 3 man Genesis, as one can see during the Musical Box recreations, those 3 are alone on the stage jamming as Hackett and Gabriel take a break. And the Cinema Show and Firth instrumentals again appeared in the 2007 Reunion Tour, and IKWIL played a very prominent role in that show also, complete with a montage of old band photos of the Classic 5 lineup. I think the entire band knows how special those tracks are. I do wish they had played the full Dancing With the Moonlit Knight more, that tune simply kicks ass live. Part 1 of the Dancing Trilogy (DWTMK, Dance on a Volcano, I Can't Dance)

[JJ88]

Phil likes the album, and we know it's Steve's favourite. The Charterhouse lads don't rank it as highly, and I agree that's a bit strange considering its huge place in their live history.

Yeah I remember Phil saying in an interview how much of that album would become live favourites. For me, it was their best produced album to date as well...still sounds quite fresh now.

I recall hearing at least one show where Gabriel really mangled the 'Epping Forest' lyrics. Unsurprisingly, perhaps, given how many of them there are!

[Progatron]

I recall hearing at least one show where Gabriel really mangled the 'Epping Forest' lyrics. Unsurprisingly, perhaps, given how many of them there are!

Haha there sure are! Slippermen was another wordy beast. Must have been tough to get it right too, with Phil doubling the vocals almost all the way through!

[Scott Bails]

Haha there sure are! Slippermen was another wordy beast. Must have been tough to get it right too, with Phil doubling the vocals almost all the way through!

They planned around that, though, with Peter's vocals not audible through the costume.

[Progatron]

They planned around that, though, with Peter's vocals not audible through the costume.

ZING!

[bill g]

Thanks, yes that's what I meant. The one version of DWTML I've heard after '74 is the famous 1978 From The Mouth Of The Monster bootleg from Chicago, where they did a unique medley of its first half and the second half of 'The Musical Box'.

The intro up to 'Selling England...' was played in 1980 and made a reappearance in 1998, alongside 'Lovers Leap'.

I'd rather they did the first half of Musical Box, and the 2nd half of Dancing...

As to their thoughts on SEBTP, I think it was Tony who said that they worked so hard on it, putting so much effort into it, that he eventually got tired of it (I don't recall how he put it), but I know 'Cinema Show' and his own 'Firth of Fifth' he feels strongly about. He didn't think it was as consistent an album as Foxtrot though.

[Progatron]

I'd rather they did the first half of Musical Box, and the 2nd half of Dancing...

As to their thoughts on SEBTP, I think it was Tony who said that they worked so hard on it, putting so much effort into it, that he eventually got tired of it (I don't recall how he put it), but I know 'Cinema Show' and his own 'Firth of Fifth' he feels strongly about. He didn't think it was as consistent an album as Foxtrot though.

Well, we know he really dislikes After The Ordeal, wasn't crazy about More Fool Me and wasn't happy with the finished Epping. He also has said that although he really likes the Moonlit Knight intro, the rest of the song isn't among his favourite material (it's sure among mine though!) So I guess that's enough of the album to bring it down a notch in his eyes - again, despite the massive stage favourites that comprise the other half (roughly).

Mike said in his book that Selling England is "not my favourite album" and goes on to mention the sagging oak tree he endlessly stared at through the window while making the album, which he felt mirrored how it felt to be making it. From everything I've gathered over the years, he is the one who likes the album least of all (although he does praise Cinema Show.)

Interesting idea re: Musical Box seguing into Moonlit Knight. I'm piecing it together in my mind right now, where to make the transition... that actually would be really cool!

[bill g]

Interesting idea re: Musical Box seguing into Moonlit Knight. I'm piecing it together in my mind right now, where to make the transition... that actually would be really cool!

When the Musical Box gets going the upbeat instrumental part before the 'Old King Cole' section would be a great place to transition into the instrumental part (the same section that Renaissance did on the first song of their last album, if you know that one). That way all the beautiful and (my opinion) strongest sections of each aren't missed. The last 3-4 minutes of Moonlit Knight are fabulous, including the quiet section at the end. But I do often gravitate more to the instrumental bits... with a couple exceptions of course!

[gojikranz]

interesting to note that a lot of selling England by the pound has not gotten the revisited treatment (at least on studio album) how many of those songs has he played on recent tours?

wonder if he will pull out deja vu as it is supposedly from the same time period.

[Vic2012]

I'm in a pub watching gridiron football, and somebody played I Can't Dance. What an awful song.

[bill g]

That's a good interview, interesting to hear such in-depth thoughts from one artist about another. All of Mike Keneally's work is very worthy of your time, but I'd recommend "Wooden Smoke" for fans of early Genesis. Not in the least bit derivative, but I do get some of that Phillips/Rutherford flavor.

just purchased. clips sound quite good.

[Steve F.]

I agree with you for what it's worth. I'm also quite certain you would have found many others to agree with you on other prog sites. But, hey, this is PE, the place where they can actually give you a list of 50 RIO albums that are so much better than SEBTP

Keep one thing in mind.

Everyone in this thread who is NOT picking Selling England has heard it and has evaluated it for its merits based on their personal tastes.

Everyone in this thread who is amazed that it is not being picked and some 50 RIO albums are being picked has also admitted that they haven't actually heard ANY of the 50 RIO albums.

[thedunno]

Perfection. POEH!

Perfection just gets boring after a while.

[Zeuhlmate]

Keep one thing in mind.

Everyone in this thread who is NOT picking Selling England has heard it and has evaluated it for its merits based on their personal tastes.

Everyone in this thread who is amazed that it is not being picked and some 50 RIO albums are being picked has also admitted that they haven't actually heard ANY of the 50 RIO albums.

[rich]

Inspired by recent discussions on Prog, last night I sat down to listen to "Selling England..." After listening to the entire LP, beginning-to-end, I found myself marvelling at this masterpiece. I wasn't able to find a single weak moment on it (okay, maybe Phil Collins's singing at the end of side one). Everything sounded perfect, perfectly composed, perfectly played, with lot of conviction and passion. A rare bird indeed.

Not only that, but the overall sound of the LP is so magnificent, so sweet, with stupendous bass and crushing drums. I don't care much for Steve Wilson's remaster -- sounds bleached when compared side by side to the original LP.

I struggle to recall a Prog album in my meagre collection that would be as perfect as this one. Curious to hear what others have to offer as the most perfect Prog album (there will no doubt be a huge disagreement with my choice).

What an absurd statement... Really the most perfect??? I mean you have the Lamb, Trick, Close the the Edge and Relayer... ok so top 4 or 5 for sure LOL!!! Joking aside it is brilliant including More Fool Me for my taste. Genesis did not have a clunker to these ears from Nursery Crime to Wind and Wuthering...

[LeFrog]

Keep one thing in mind.

Everyone in this thread who is NOT picking Selling England has heard it and has evaluated it for its merits based on their personal tastes.

Everyone in this thread who is amazed that it is not being picked and some 50 RIO albums are being picked has also admitted that they haven't actually heard ANY of the 50 RIO albums.

Funny how a tongue in cheek comment I made 6 months ago gets thrown back at me regularly these days.
All I meant to say is that it is almost provocative to claim that SEBTP is the greatest prog album on PE because the musical knowledge here is so vast that you will find the majority will disagree. I never implied that anyone was wrong for preferring 50 other RIO albums that I have indeed never heard.

[Trane]

Funny how a tongue in cheek comment I made 6 months ago gets thrown back at me regularly these days.
All I meant to say is that it is almost provocative to claim that SEBTP is the greatest prog album on PE because the musical knowledge here is so vast that you will find the majority will disagree. I never implied that anyone was wrong for preferring 50 other RIO albums that I have indeed never heard.

I think that Steve's comment was about as much tongue-in-cheek as yours...
But I wouldn't worry too much, the real shame is on Feldman for opening the present thread

=====================

On the other hand, if the was such a thing as yearly PE's top album list (but "we" never made one, except in the site's early year polls), yes, it would be a very different list compared to SoT's or DPRP's list, with PA's being somewhat in the middle.

[kid_runningfox]

Good, but below Wind and Wuthering in my personal Genesis canon. And there is no 'perfect prog album ever,' imho; just many great ones that all have their individual merits.

[AndiSexgang]

For me the Genesis album closest to perfect is Wind & Wuthering with Trick a very close second.

I've never heard a perfect "prog" album. I could suggest a few that come pretty close though:
Phaedra and Rubycon
Benefit and Aqualung
Fragile and CTTE
Script, Fugazi, Misplaced Childhood
DSOTM

I would like to suggest a couple of Mike Oldfield albums but he always had some crappy half-comical hornpipe or other nonsense dittty on his better albums which ruined the whole feel. For the same reason I can't suggest Meddle, because of St. Tropez and Seamus.

[NogbadTheBad]

For me the Genesis album closest to perfect is Wind & Wuthering with Trick a very close second.

I've never heard a perfect "prog" album. I could suggest a few that come pretty close though:
Phaedra and Rubycon
Benefit and Aqualung
Fragile and CTTE
Script, Fugazi, Misplaced Childhood
DSOTM

I would like to suggest a couple of Mike Oldfield albums but he always had some crappy half-comical hornpipe or other nonsense dittty on his better albums which ruined the whole feel. For the same reason I can't suggest Meddle, because of St. Tropez and Seamus.

You were doing so well up to this point.

[NogbadTheBad]

On the other hand, if the was such a thing as yearly PE's top album list (but "we" never made one, except in the site's early year polls), yes, it would be a very different list compared to SoT's or DPRP's list, with PA's being somewhat in the middle.

The Pan Heads of the RIO Popular Front and Avant-Gardening Allotment Association* would carpet bomb the poll.


*Credit - Mascodagama

[Rarebird]

Perfect prog albums?
Pekka Pohjola's output.

[miamiscot]

Perfect prog albums?
Pekka Pohjola's output.

I'll second that for PP's first two albums!!!

[Kcrimso]

I'll second that for PP's first two albums!!!

Visitation (1979) is my favourite Pohjola album. That is almost perfect album!