Perceptions of PE

[Steve F.]

Wow.

These people must not frequent too many other forums then.

This place is an oasis among many cesspools on the Internet.

I can't argue with that. I certainly don't spend much time on forums.

It may be an oasis compared to many cesspools, but I still think it's mean spirited and snarky and not very informative too much of the time.

ymmv.

[Progmatic]

I'll be the voice of dissent.

Among some of my friends, this place is known as "The Hateful Forum"

I think that there is way too much mean-spirited crap on this board and there has been for years and years. It hasn't gotten worse because of the software changes behind the board, but it certainly hasn't improved because of it.

There's always discussion about improving the tone, but you'll never improve the tone if you are not willing to toss people once in a while and let everyone know they were tossed and why.

No one has any right to post whatever they want here. They have a right to post here as long as they follow the rules and too many know that they don't have to follow the rules and nothing will happen to them if they don't follow the rules.

You want more 'conversation' and 'discussion' here and less snark?? Enforce the rules.

I am sure that all the moderators are pretty tired of being the moderators. It's a tiresome, thankless job.

But since Sean asked, I am giving my honest opinion of what is needed. I've said it before and was ignored. I expect to be ignored this time as well, but I am giving my honest opinion of the place.

imo.

some strong words...I have been on few different forums and people are the same everywhere...if they disagree with something they raise the issue and surely it can escalate...I have come across heated exchanges frequently, pragmatically speaking, people were just showing their passion...most of the time it is just misunderstandings or different angle the people look at the same thing … but I found that on this forum people tend to keep it civil for the longest time, keeping it impersonal...I came very rarely across real hatred…but then again I also learned that some people may perceive simple disagreement as a sign of hatred…

[Scott Bails]

Yeah, I really, really don't get the "hateful" comment at all.

[Steve F.]

some strong words…

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

Anyway, I'm done now. You can say I'm wrong or I'm a jerk or I don't know how much worse every place else is or I'm a douchebag or you might even agree with what I have said.

Sean asked and I answered. This is the end of it from me about this subject in this thread. You all can take or leave my comments.

[100423]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

That's the thing for me, too. You can disagree with someone without having to be derogatory. You can state your dislike of a band, or song, or album with having to deem it a pile of steaming shit. Some just maybe not be as entertained by it when it's civil.

[Progmatic]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

Anyway, I'm done now. You can say I'm wrong or I'm a jerk or I don't know how much worse every place else is or I'm a douchebag or you might even agree with what I have said.

Sean asked and I answered. This is the end of it from me about this subject in this thread. You all can take or leave my comments.

I did not mean that was something wrong with your statement...it just surprises me that someone would think of PE that way...that is all

[Gladiator1634]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...
.

Your right and that's how it is done most of the time here. Is there some sarcasm on here at times sure and I don't agree with it but not sure I've witnessed what I would call hateful. You can't expect a forum with this many people to always be in sync sometimes it comes down to how others perceive and react to criticism.

[Scott Bails]

I did not mean that was something wrong with your statement...it just surprises me that someone would think of PE that way...that is all

Agreed.

[NogbadTheBad]

Good post Steve, I'll bear it mind next time in stumble into a neo thread.

[Plasmatopia]

IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

I totally agree with this. We always hear the same sorts of things about how it's a big bad world out there on the Internet and you'd better put on your flame-retardant suit, etc. But it is possible to create a place that isn't like that.

[trurl]

You also have to figure that on a public forum with a few thousand people, catering to a fairly- dare I say- intellectual and nerdy pursuit like prog, some posters are going to be afflicted with varying degrees of verbal Asberger's (to put it one way), some aren't native English speakers and don't quite come off like they would want and there's always people that just like to stir the pot On PE2 there were only a few people that really got under my skin; most of them didn't migrate over here and one turned out to be really cool even though I disagree with everything he stands for *lol*

[Gruno]

There's always discussion about improving the tone, but you'll never improve the tone if you are not willing to toss people once in a while and let everyone know they were tossed and why.

I agree with this to a point.

If someone is getting out of hand, then warnings or bannings are necessary. Don't disrupt the herd, just eliminate the bad ones.

[trurl]

I agree with this to a point.

If someone is getting out of hand, then warnings or bannings are necessary. Don't disrupt the herd, just eliminate the bad ones.

Yeah... it's like having a kid; they'll test you. You have to follow through on a punishment or they'll walk all over you.

[Scott Bails]

Yeah... it's like having a kid; they'll test you...

I thought you were going to say that you had to eliminate them if they started getting out of hand!

[Esoteric]

Ok from a label and manager side of things--I find it a really interesting site, a combination of social/business but always something I didnt know or find interesting and I like the international aspect of the site --albeit with a slight US focus in terms of members. I know many artists who regularly look but wont post--as they dont want to get into a "Billy Sherwood" type situation or have some abusive person going off on one, so yes many (although not all) of the big guys are very aware of it.

I know many of them (like ourselves) dont like being referred to just by their surname as if they are some kind of commodity--we are all people!! we have feelings. On or two people on here very fond of doing that.

I know many of us also feel there are some people on here who say statements that are blatantly not true about bands/artists/releases (past and present) insinuating they "know from the inside" --when they clearly dont know at all. Can be really annoying to have to sit on your hands in some cases--but many things just are not for public posting. and

I know many artists too who are greatful their name is being kept aloft by the site--so allelujah on behalf of them.

[Yodelgoat]

..Billy Sherwood. That was too bad, I didnt even really know who the guy was, I sure know now.

As far as label owners go, as an artist, I doubt I will ever see things exactly as a label see things. I wish you wouldn't sit on your hands. Perhaps a little communication once in a while might be what is needed. Of course public display is not always the best place to air ones laundry, but to the artist its a perfectly reasonable place to start, its how you get peoples attention who prefer to ignore you. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its a reality. Artists can be awkward to deal with. I had no idea I had that streak of passion in me when I tried to look at my music as a commodity. I was the loose cannon, but Labels are the ones who ought to be the stable ones, However, they can be worse and saying "hey, its in the contract" isnt terribly helpful - you may be right, but it doesnt innoculate you from being a focal point for artistic derision.

Sorry, I'm rambling....

I have no label now. I feel better.

[Jefferson James]

I have no clue how the outside world perceives this place -- I've never heard anyone outside of PE say anything negative about it. I have met dozens of PE members over the years and the experience is always positive, which says a lot.

I find the crowd here to be exceptionally respectful as a rule and when things get out of hand it rarely, if ever, devolves into pure hatred and flame wars. I've jousted and jabbed with a handful of members and it's always been in the spirit of fun, never taken personally and always laughed-off in the end.

As a rock-bottom-scraping-the-barrel-level "artist" out there trying to make Prog Rock(tm) in this day and age, I learned very quickly people here aren't necessarily interested in a band just because they call their style "progressive rock"; there's too many bands clamoring for attention and that attention, when received (if at all) is spread-out among a few supporters here and there, unlike the Major Label Legends(tm) who have legions of fans due to the marketing dollars spent on promotion back in the day. For a new artist to come to PE and expect anyone to give them the time of day just because they write "progressive rock" -- Blue Vino, anyone? -- is unrealistic. If the artist can't see that, it's not PE's fault, just as it's not the new artist's fault more people talk about Yes and Genesis than, say, Sanguin Hum.

It's called life.

I pretty much owe any "success" I've had in the past five years to Progressive Ears; this place is a fantastic resource and if utilized somewhat sparingly and with respect, some truly wonderful opportunities can arise for self-promoting low-level artists. I came on board at a time when I wasn't even playing prog rock; I enjoyed the vibe here, the tone was generally respectful, and people were more than willing to share and educate. When the time came where I had something to promote I wasn't accused of being a hit-and-run spammer 'cause I was already hanging out here. I know it sounds stupid but that's how it went down.

As far as having a thick skin, I guess I'm lucky 'cause it doesn't bother me when someone is critical of whatever I put out there; it's just songs, there are more to be written and at the end of the day no one likes everything. I don't even like everything by my favorite artists; that's what keeps life interesting.


If someone is truly interested in discovering new music and unearthing old gems, this is the place to be; if someone wants to come here and get opinions about their music, by default they open themselves up for criticism -- as well as praise -- and if the results don't suit them don't blame Progressive Ears!

I think it's cool higher-level artists hang out here; whenever a veteran artist makes a post it's like a glimpse behind the curtain, you know? I wish more of 'em would post rather than lurk but that's their prerogative. Since becoming aware of the presence of some heavy-hitters here I have found myself trying to be more balanced and less emotional in my posts about their music. I want them to know I really listened and, if it didn't work for me, that I at least respect the fact they went out there and did something. I feel any artist worth their salt appreciates balanced criticism backed up by tangible assessments and even in the worst cases, I can always find at least a couple of positive things to highlight. If, Allah forbid, I have pissed-off any higher-level artist by criticizing their work in my own style, it's their problem, not mine. I look at it this way: reading a review speaks 100% to the mindset of the reviewer and not the artist.

I love this place and I do miss the more detailed threads which were de rigueur on PEV2, but I consider this board to be a developing entity and hopefully with time it'll morph into something a little less scattered and more focused.

Meanwhile, have you heard my new band?

[Steve F.]

I wish you wouldn't sit on your hands. Perhaps a little communication once in a while might be what is needed. Of course public display is not always the best place to air ones laundry, but to the artist its a perfectly reasonable place to start, its how you get peoples attention who prefer to ignore you.

You're the person who ON THIS FORUM called me dishonest, without your knowing anything about me or my work, strictly because I am a label owner!

At least two artists who have recorded for us posted that we were great and honest and that they were grateful to us and our office for all of our help with their career and that you didn't know wtf you were talking about.

I don't recall receiving an apology...

You are exactly the sort of poster I was referring to when I called this place The Hateful Forum.

Apparently, it's also the STUPID forum.

jeezus.

[Gruno]

Yes, but notice how I didn't insult any one particular person or group of people? I pointed out what I saw as shortcomings of the site and didn't call anyone a name.

I made sure to show that this was my opinion and that people could disagree with me and I wouldn't call them a name.

It can be done. IF people want to write or express themselves that way, it can be done...

You are exactly the sort of poster I was referring to when I called this place The Hateful Forum.

Apparently, it's also the STUPID forum..

[Steve F.]

OK. Gruno is right.

I am not going to erase what I said because I said it. But I apologize.

But it sure would have been nice to have received an apology from Mr. Goat....

[Scott Bails]

Um....yeah....

[80s were ok]

OK. Gruno is right.

I am not going to erase what I said because I said it. But I apologize.

But it sure would have been nice to have received an apology from Mr. Goat....

never heard of either of you...making this type of "Laundry" just silly.

[Innerviews]

That's it. I'm switching to Bolivian Dubstep, and Bolivian Dubstep only.

[Duncan Glenday]

"Now, be brutally honest, I really wanna know what you guys think of my new composition" [/i] I just smell trouble .

... Poor Blue Vino

You beat me to it!

IMHO - when a new artist (Blue Vino was just one of many) joins JUST to promote his/her music, we take umbrage. But if that artist is a regular contributing member of PE, or is an established artist of long standing, I believe they deserve a different measure of respect.

are we talking about high profile members of or akin to members of the Big five (or six or whatever - you know, musicians with real history recording for major labels who play to thousands of fans at concerts)-type caliber musicians or people who like put a record out on something like Prog Rock Records that know one has really heard of except half a dozen PE members?

I was referring to what you called "high profile members of or akin to members of the Big five (or six or whatever - you know, musicians with real history recording for major labels who play to thousands of fans at concerts)-type caliber musicians" - though it really applies to artists at all levels.

I'll be the voice of dissent.
(and many other things...)

Steve's and Vicky's posts are very revealing - and are actually at the heart of the reason Sean started this thread. We've heard similar opinions from other artists, labels, and promotors.

There's a case to be made for respectful treatment of artists - i.e. posting an opinion without being nasty.

But on the other hand, there's an equal case to be made for allowing the fan-base to be as supportive or as critical as they like. They vote on the product they buy with their dollars and their opinions - same as any other product. The artists' target market is the public - and love them or hate them, THIS IS the public. "The public" is made up of flawed humans who are often mean-spirited, and critical. Not just fawning fans.

Perhaps moderation is the answer - but as Steve indicated, moderation is a bitch. You can bet that the moment we moderate the way someone expresses an opinion there will be self-righteous howls of indignation and accusations of inconsistency

...I've said it before and was ignored. I expect to be ignored this time as well...

See?

Wow.

These people must not frequent too many other forums then.

This place is an oasis among many cesspools on the Internet.

Scott is right. But despite what I said above, I'd like to see PE become something of a jewel among opinion boards. I like to think that as a group we are better informed than almost any similar board, and that we can develop ways to welcome artists to the forum, rather than frighten them off.

[Duncan Glenday]

From the TERMS OF SERVICE

5). Please enlighten us with your positive views. It is unnecessary and destructive to tell us about music you hate. Do not start threads about music you don't like and do not post confrontational messages to threads about music you don't like. Feel free to express negative opinions as long as they are enlightening and respectful of the tastes of others, and in the spirit of critical debate. The moderators will not mediate inter-personal arguments. If you feel that any member is bullying or being consistently confrontational, you must use the "ignore" feature.

Please read it again