Like I said about "Warm Wet Circle" above, I agree. He was and is certainly the perfect guitarist for the band. I can't imagine anyone else doing what he does there.Originally Posted by moecurlythanu
Like I said about "Warm Wet Circle" above, I agree. He was and is certainly the perfect guitarist for the band. I can't imagine anyone else doing what he does there.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
What, no Roye Albrighton? Seriously?
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
He made my list of "leftovers."
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
Basically it boils down to this: either it's all purely subjective and everyone gives his own preferences and they all have the same value. It's surely convenient - I like this, you like that, no argumentation needed, no essential discussion involved.
Or one tries to establish some form of objective criteria. It doesn't matter what form of criteria, but there has to be one, otherwise it's all random. Of course we're talking about music, about art, it's not math where one can be purely objective. But how does one judge?
The list presented here is no good in my opinion. Because even the names that deserve to be in the list are found in there randomly. It's like a guy picking the guitar players from his favorite bands. Gary Green, Richard Williams? I am a huge fan of both Gentle Giant and Kansas, and these guys served the music well, but they are not exceptional players by any means. They themselves wouldn't include themselves in any such list.
So are we talking about virtuosity? How come that Steve Morse isn't there, or Alain Holdsworth? Are we talking about feeling? About historical significance? About pushing the instrument to its limits? About kick-ass riff wizardry? About influence to others? What are we talking about exactly? There are things that exceed personal taste, I am not be the biggest fan of Robert Fripp's guitar playing but I would never dream of making a list without him. Clearly his playing is a cornerstone of progressive rock music. But so is Fred Frith's, about whom we get no mention at all.
But if it's just the I like You like stuff it's all the same anyway. No need to discuss anything, no need to explore, no need to interact.
It's difficult for me to think about the greatest Prog guitarist being anyone and I'm sure several outstanding Prog guitarist will tell you that the music comes first..and not always drawing attention to your guitar.....not unlike people who actually set up guitar contests. ...
Then your following this rule that you must compete with other guitar players and that concept evolves into gymnastics instead of soloing over a chord progression with melodic phrasing and maybe play something fast at the end. That's an overrated concept for the guitar ..more than drums and keyboards sometimes.
The guitar did in fact gain the "show off" mentality for decades, but there are amazingly skilled guitarists who can't relate to that because they are more interested in composition than guitar solos. I believe it would be more honest to include Steve Morse and Alan Holdsworth on this list because the levels of their guitar playing is literally shocking...skilled, seasoned, powerful, melodic, AND...dynamic!
Maybe handpicked lists exist? Actually they do and I'm sure Phil Lee wouldn't be included..but yet he plays so beautifully on the nylon string Classical guitar. I think it's important to realize that several Rock guitarists in the 70s were decent Jazz players. A lot of people didn't realize it because they only saw them in a Rock band. ...but if they heard them playing in a dressing room that would change their perspective entirely. I mean...it's not like there weren't Rock guitarist that mastered John McLaughlin solos and then played Rock n' Roll on stage. Several mainstream Rock guitarists actually did. That's just reasoning...it's honest.
Technique alone is not what makes a guitarist good or great. Many think Angus Young is a great guitarist due to his expressiveness, despite lacking in the technique department.
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama
One thing is "the greatest prog guitarist" and another YOUR "favorite prog guitarist". The first intends to be objective while the second is strictly a matter of taste. You can discuss about the first, but not about the second one. You just STATE who is your favorite axeman and people have to respect that.
How can you determine who is the greatest guitarist? Maybe, through some criteria like technique, creativity, innovation and feel. So, based on technique, best guitarists could be Ritchie Blackmore, Steve Howe, Steve Vai, Buckethead, etc. Based on creativity, Robert Fripp, Brian May, Fred Frith, Adrian Belew, Mike Keneally, etc. Based on innovation, Jimi Hendrix, Tony Iommi, Eddie Van Halen, etc. Based on feel, best guitarists could be George Harrison, David Gilmour, Slash, etc. I am not being exact or exhaustive. I just dropped the names that came to my mind first. Also, I'm not taking in account more blues, jazz or fusion oriented players like Jeff Beck, Allan Holdsworth or John McLaughlin, who, based on the technique criterion, would beat any pop, prog or rock guitarist.
I think a few guitarists match all (or almost all of) these criteria, e.g. Robert Fripp, Brian May and Steve Vai.
But, then, when it comes to my favorite guitarist, it probably is Frank Zappa, but I don't know why. He doesn't match any of the above criteria, but he just does it for me. I think that is probably the case of the people that mentioned Steve Rothery as "best" guitarist. They just like him no matter if he is a virtuoso or not. He isn't and Frank Zappa wasn't either.
Just for clarification. FZ was a very accomplished guitar player. His playing on Hot Rats is stellar (that's the closest he got to "guitar god" status). The point is: Frank didn't view himself as a guitarist. He preferred that people saw him as a composer. So, the guitar was just a vehicle to express his ideas (John Zorn says the same about his relationship with the saxophone). I suspect that the instrument FZ most loved was drums. Also, he was very insecure about his guitar abilities. That's why he needed someone like Steve Vai around him, to play the parts he wrote but couldn't play. In his last years, he stopped playing the guitar at all. He concentrated on composing on sheet music or on the synclavier. But still, many people, myself included, love FZ's guitar playing. Despite not being what you would call a "virtuoso" (a la Allan Holdsworth, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, etc.) he just had that "something" that made him unique and instantly recognizable, which is the best thing you could say about any player.
I loved Frank Zappa's tone on Joe's Garage Acts I, II, & III. His soloing was interesting on all three. I like his tone on Zappa In N.Y. and Lather a bit more than Make A Jazz Noise Here...but that's just me.
Yes, FZ's guitar playing is extraordinary on those albums too. I mentioned Hot Rats because it's his most famous album (even people who don't like FZ dig it). Besides, it contains Willie the pimp, which has my favorite FZ guitar solo.
Interesting!
Make A Jazz Noise Here was awright, but I think by 1988, Frank was losing interest in playing guitar. I think in the Real Frank Zappa Book, he said he felt like the audience's attention span wasn't what it used to be, and with the larger group with the horn section, I think he felt like there wasn't as much room for the kind of extended soloing he had done on previous tours. I still say Guitar is the "go to" place for Frank's guitar playing, along with the Does Humor Belong In Music album (not the video, which has most of the solos edited)
That's perfectly correct yes!...and I did forget about that. He in fact lose interest in the guitar during that time. ..but of course to certain degrees because he still had a lot of mileage on the guitar over years of playing and could still master something new on guitar that was over his head...if he wanted to. He certainly had years of experience that's for sure
Suggestions:
Hot Rats whole album
Chungas Revenge several tracks
The solo on Inca Roads ! (One Size Fits All)
Sheik Yerbouti:Rat Tomago, "The Sheik Yerbouti Tango", Yo Mama - all 3 exceptionally Awesome!
Frank Zappa - Occam's Razor
The 3 CD/LP album Shut up and play your guitar
And many more...
I like Andrew Latimer's guitar playing, particularly on Pressure Points ( live cd), where his tone is perfect. Never researched his gear but on the Pressure Points live recordings I thought that sometimes his overall sustain sounded like it came from a "tube amp"..however in other cases it can be produced with a "stomp box"..but nevertheless he has a clean sophisticated screech when soloing "Rock leads" and not too distant from the sound of David Gilmour on "Shine On" or Peter Green's phrasing on the Boston Tea Party recordings. If you listen to Camel live at Dingwalls Dance Hall from Greasy Truckers it's obvious he had the technique and essence of that style of guitar playing a long time ago and that clearly he added it to his own vocabulary.
On "The Sleeper" it's a different story. He sounds more progressive than the aforementioned. He has the ability to play fast and clean. He most likely doesn't prefer to play that way regularly in his composition because stylistically it doesn't compliment his writing nor does it give Camel a better sound ...and their music was never written around that style of playing in the sense that it would be more consistent...not unlike Brand X or National Health...so I get the idea that Andrew Latimer is more interested in the end result of the composition itself and when he writes its often built upon a theme which expands with dynamics, eventually transforming into more intense playing..therefore fast notes.
I have heard him play extended passages on the guitar at rapid speed on Camel recordings and I believe he doesn't reveal all of his knowledge on the guitar and most likely there are pieces of music that he has played throughout his life and mastered in which a lot of people who listen to his guitar playing for years may not realize his level of capabilities
I saw him twice on the '88 tour and, while the first show in February certainly fit that scenario, the second one, in March, was the complete opposite and turned out to be a night of absolute blistering guitar work. I saw FZ five times and this was, the heaviest.
3-8-88 Syria Mosque Pittsburgh
Stink‐Foot
Peaches en Regalia
Stick Together
My Guitar Wants to Kill Your Mama
Willie the Pimp
Montana
City of Tiny Lites
A Pound for a Brown on the Bus
When the Lie's So Big
Jesus Thinks You're a Jerk
Eat That Question
Black Napkins
Norwegian Jim / Louisiana Hooker With Herpes / Texas Motel
Sharleena
Joe's Garage
Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?
Cruising for Burgers
Uncle Remus
Let's Make the Water Turn Black
Harry, You're a Beast
The Orange County Lumber Truck
Oh No
Lumpy Gravy
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
Damn, that's some juicy set list. Would love to see a legit release of this show. Not much overlap with the recent Zappa 88 set, either.
Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
https://michaelpdawson.bandcamp.com
http://www.waysidemusic.com/Music-Pr...MCD-spc-7.aspx
I was so blown away.
I have an audience recording of it, luckily.
"The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"
Steve Howe was a bit mind blowing when he first appeared on The Yes Album bringing more ragtime acoustic and a little bit of Jim Hall style into the Yes band. Shortly after he was playing Classical guitar on "Mood For A Day" and "The Ancient" .
He seemed to draw the audience into his diversity on the guitar...particularly in the U.S. and the way he switched guitars and performed sections of Yes' music seemed to amaze people.
Steve Howe was a ball of energy..bopping his head up and down often expressing his energetic state. When Steve Howe brought his magic to Yes ...his connection with the audience and their reaction was instantaneous.
Well said!
What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound (2112)
Alan Holdsworth for many reasons.. One which comes to mind is the influence he had on guitar players. One player in particular on The Bruford Tapes ( might be Clark? ), is obviously not the first time I've heard guitarists trying to sound like him. In Berkeley...and other universities...students of the guitar heard Gong Expresso or Bundles and tried to emulate his style.
What's interesting to me about Alan Holdsworth is that during some of his wildest soloing the notes are like a waterfall not unlike a piano or sax. It takes a lot of practice to form that perfect flow. I strolled into several Jazz clubs in N.Y. and Philadelphia for years and heard a lot of guitarists playing like Alan Holdsworth. His style of improvisation and his technique are like a study. Guitarists worldwide have worked on mastering it for decades
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