The "Dead Drum Sound" Thread

**Czyszy** · 07-07-2023

Hey! Does any of you like that early 80's/late 70's cardboard/overmuffled/dead drum sound? I'm a huge fan personally. It's all over prog songs from that period but ever since the late 80 up until this very day that sound has been forgotten about and never recreated perfectly in the modern era. At least to my knowledge.

Examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYxtkgBRYms

And this one is an extreme example but it illustrates the sound I'm talking about the best out of all 3:

I've seen videos of people trying to reproduce this classic sound but nobody IMO gets the toms right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMgFzvg72XE

Like in this video by Jake Reed and a few others, the toms dont' have that snappy body found in the drum recordings from the 70s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxXRY4jq-sk

People just muffle the toms too much methinks. It's not the way to go. Also, in the recreations, the hihat is often too thin and brittle.

**battema** · 07-07-2023

Based on those sounds, I'd probably just load up my Linnstrument VST to get that same sound.

**markwoll** · 07-07-2023

I was thinking about this the other day.
How often I hear what sound like practice pads instead of drums.
Drums don't have to have the Steve Lillywhite gated reverb, but I do like a drum sound that, if it's not syn drum, isn't treated to oblivion.

**battema** · 07-07-2023

Originally Posted by markwoll

I was thinking about this the other day.
How often I hear what sound like practice pads instead of drums.
Drums don't have to have the Steve Lillywhite gated reverb, but I do like a drum sound that, if it's not syn drum, isn't treated to oblivion.

Yeah, those aren't really my thing either, except in some of the cool retro synthwave stuff I enjoy; stuff that's trying to capture the late 70's disco sound for lack of a better phrase.

I prefer drums with some air and life to them myself.

**Plasmatopia** · 07-07-2023

I don't mind that sound and I even like it at times, but it does seem "of its time". No modern day versions of that come immediately to mind, but maybe something will come to me.

**Koreabruce** · 07-07-2023

Ringo's tea towels come to mind...

**progmatist** · 07-07-2023

The main culprit in the "cardboardization" of drums was 16 bit digital truncation. Listening to vinyl records from that era through quality equipment, with a properly aligned quality cartridge....the drums sound quite natural. Engineers initially compensated for that cardboard sound by making drums sound huge. Through means like gated reverb. Even now drums sound boomier than when played live. We've just grown so accustomed to that boomier sound, we don't even notice it.

**Czyszy** · 07-07-2023

Originally Posted by progmatist

The main culprit in the "cardboardization" of drums was 16 bit digital truncation. Listening to vinyl records from that era through quality equipment, with a properly aligned quality cartridge....the drums sound quite natural. Engineers initially compensated for that cardboard sound by making drums sound huge. Through means like gated reverb. Even now drums sound boomier than when played live. We've just grown so accustomed to that boomier sound, we don't even notice it.

It's not true. A quality cartridge doesn't magically add drum overtones that originally were not there in the first place. It's obviously drum muffling, not a 16 bit transfer.

**progmatist** · 07-07-2023

^^ I can take your word for it, or I can believe my own lying ears. Digital truncation is what strips away those overtones. Listening to my old 16 bit transfers, compared to my new 24/96 Hi-Res transfers, the difference is night and day.

**Gizmotron** · 07-07-2023

As a 63-year old fan of music, especially Progressive/Art music, I have a soft-spot for every period of music from the 1960s to the 2020s, which incudes quite a bit of dead-sounding drums. That type of drum sound seemed to fit much of the Beatles, and oodles of pop records in the 70’s (James Taylor’s Fire and Rain seems to be the “Type Locality” for that sound.)

But as a drummer, I do not really like that sound. I love the full, rich sound of my tom toms as they resonate from both the top and bottom heads (Yes, i went through my Phil Collins Single-head phase though). In geeral, I want a full, vibrant sound from a drum set. But there is a time and a place for everything…

**progmatist** · 07-07-2023

^^ I recently discovered through experimentation anyone using one of those lay-flat protractors to align their cartridge is misaligning their cartridge. Which is probably most people. I found it's critical to precisely align just the leading edge of the cartridge, right where the stylus resides. Resulting in the trailing edge being over-aligned, protruding over the edge of the record when the needle drops on the lead-in groove. Doing so, the highs are even more brilliant than the protractor method. And the bass is much deeper and tighter. The drums sound very much like a live kit. Those protractors align the entire length of the cartridge. Which would be fine if the stylus was located dead center, rather than on the leading edge

**Czyszy** · 07-08-2023

Originally Posted by progmatist

^^ I can take your word for it, or I can believe my own lying ears. Digital truncation is what strips away those overtones. Listening to my old 16 bit transfers, compared to my new 24/96 Hi-Res transfers, the difference is night and day.

It does strip overtones but not drum overtones, and it doesn't make drums sound precisely like they're physically muffled with moongel/gaff etc. Wouldn't a poor cartridge also affect the cymbals? For some reason, only the drums sound muffled. It's not like the sound/sonic quality is muffled. No. It's that dampening I'm talking about.

**progmatist** · 07-08-2023

Originally Posted by Czyszy

It does strip overtones but not drum overtones, and it doesn't make drums sound precisely like they're physically muffled with moongel/gaff etc. Wouldn't a poor cartridge also affect the cymbals? For some reason, only the drums sound muffled. It's not like the sound/sonic quality is muffled. No. It's that dampening I'm talking about.

See my post just above your last post. I found precisely aligning the cartridge breaths life into the drums. Along with the rest of the low end. Those lay-flat protractors, which most people use are themselves out of alignment. Using them as a guide will result in a misaligned cartridge. Bold statement, I know. PM me an email address, and I'll send you a short audio clip to demonstrate.

**progmatist** · 07-08-2023

My quick, easy, and highly accurate cartridge alignment method:

The only tools required are a piece of thread with a small loop tied to the end. And of course a screwdriver for the mounting screws. Make sure the loop is large enough for the thread to freely rotate around the spindle, not wrap around it. When the thread is pulled tight, it will always be perfectly perpendicular to the record.

DSCN9708.jpg

Set down the stylus on any record. Pull the thread toward the cartridge, and adjust the azimuth until the leading edge of the cartridge is perfectly parallel with the thread. It's advisable to set the cartridge down on various spots. To insure the entire cartridge doesn't need to move back or forth. That's it, very straight forward. No squinting, or viewing the cartridge relative to a protractor from every conceivable angle. I would defy anyone to accurately align an Ortofon 2M cartridge to a protractor. With all of its various facets.

DSCN9709.jpg

The resulting sound is absolutely amazing. Records currently have a reputation for lacking low end. A reputation not without merit....unless one listens through a precisely aligned cartridge.

**Mr.Krautman** · 07-09-2023

^^^ Unless you're using a linear tracking arm a phono cartridge is allways "misaligned" at some points during its travel across the arm path. Cartridge alignment is a compromise and a protractor helps you minimize the lateral tracking error at some specific (or preferred) points. It's a proven method if you undertsand how and why to use it (which apparently you don't).
From your previous posts and "alignment method" I'm sorry to say you didn't understand anything about the basic arm/cartridge geometric relationships and are using some terms (azimuth,...) inappropriately.
Also, it's not a good idea trying to minimize (lateral) tracking error at the outer side of the disc (what you're trying to do with your method) where the distorsion is already the lowest (due to the higher linear speed at the outer side).
Lateral tracking error produces (harmonic and intermodulation) distorsion(s) but has no (or very small) effect on the lowest frequencies and I can't see how it could improve (or "breath life") into the drums sounds only.

BUT, if it sounds good (or better) to your ears IT IS good !

However I strongly suspect there's something wrong with your playback system (arm/cartridge/speakers or whatever) and I would NOT recommend your "alignment" method as a universal one. (I would even advise NOT to use it)

**progmatist** · 07-09-2023

^^ Hearing is believing. Results were duplicated on multiple turntables with multiple tone arm setups. Not just one. I wouldn't have believed it prior to mid April either. I had no idea what a huge difference a very slight error using a protractor, corrected by my new method could make. At multiple points on the disc. Not just the outer side. An error which could be generated by viewing a protractor at an ever so slightly wrong angle. There is ample room for error viewing a protractor. My method removes all the guess work. My evolution to my new method started by purchasing a standing protractor from Amazon in April. It breaths life into the entire lower register. Including, not exclusive to drums.

I can provide an audio clip as evidence. Name any album whose vinyl version is notorious for lacking low end. If I have it, I'll record it and send it along.

**Mr.Krautman** · 07-09-2023

^^^ the link you're providing is NOT for a "protractor" but a VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) azimuth ruler. The only way to adjust VTA is by changing the arm HEIGHT (at the pivot) when such adjustment is provided by the arm manufacturer (some cheap arms/turntable combinations don't have such adjustment). The best and easiest way to check VTA is by placing a small mirror under the cartridge when it has a 90° square front edge, or by trial and error (and visual inspection) since it's quite a critical adjustment.
A PROTRACTOR is a different device used to adjust lateral tracking error (also called "overhang"), adjustment is done by moving the cartridge (or whole arm) in the horizontal plane towards or farther from the turntable spindle.
Both VTA and Overhang adjustments have a noticeable impact on the cartridge performance (mainly distorsion and trackability) but not to the point of completely and radically changing the sound of the playback system. To make it more complex, there's some inter-relation between VTF (tracking force), VTA, Overhang, and Anti-Skating adjustments. Correct adjustment of a phono arm/cartridge is a rather tedious and delicate process, much more than simply stretching a string attached to the spindle.
"Hearing is believing" of course but my guess is that by deliberately MIS-adjusting your cartridge/arm you're just generating extra harmonic products, also commonly called DISTORSION which gives the (false) impression of a brighter and more detailed sound. You may like it that way, but it's nothing else than distorsion.
This same effect was used by APHEX in the 80ies in their "AURAL EXCITER" processor to re-create "lost harmonics" by adding a (carefully selected and dosable) distorsion to the original program material.
But distorsion (pleasant or not) is still... distorsion ! And all the adjustments (arm/cartridge) provided by the manufacturers are there to MINIMIZE distorsion products, not increasing them.
There are already too much distorsion products inherent to the mechanical disc playback process, no need to add more.

And to be back to the OP's topic, I can't see (or hear) what all this has to do with what he calls the "Dead Drum Sound". Ask any sound engineer and he'll tell you that properly recording a drumkit is one of the most difficult and challenging tasks. No surprise that most "would be sound engineers" (very often ex-roadies or P.A guys) working in (rock) recording studios back then failed. The fact is that about 70-80% (rock) drums recordings made during the 70ies are just terrible, and (for reasons I can't explain) even worse in the prog-rock genre. A poor recording remains a poor recording whatever playback system (Analog, CD or whatever) you use, or adjustments to your cartridge you can make. It could (at best) change from mediocre to barely acceptable but nothing will fix the "cardboard drum sound" engraved in these old recordings due to the sound engineer's incompetence, or doubtful artistic choices (often both). And for the overall lack of bass (low) frequencies, remember these have been severely limited due to the mechanical constraints of disc cutting lathes/heads. And there were good, and less good cutting engineers. This is another variable and limitation you must live with... (unless of course if you're using CD's which are devoid of most of these irritating problems).

You really want to be challenged ? Just send me a good sounding (drums) version of Gentle Giant's "Missing Piece" (vinyl) record reproduced with your "tweaked" cartridge.

**progmatist** · 07-09-2023

^^ I'll concede I interchanged zenith with azimuth in previous posts. Zenith is specifically to what I'm referring, and what I'm adjusting with the piece of thread. The channel balance is virtually unchanged when using a lay flat protractor, then getting a more accurate read with the piece of thread. Indicating the change in zenith is minimal. If the zenith was significantly off, it would tend to favor one channel over the other. The enhanced sound quality on the other hand is quite dramatic. And BTW: trying to use that VTA/Azimuth ruler wrong, before reading the instructions was what gave me the idea for using a piece of thread. An idea I subsequently developed absent the presence of the VTA/Azimuth ruler.

**Czyszy** · 07-09-2023

It has more to do with mic choices, and muffling the drums themselves than the vinyl cutting IMHO.

**progmatist** · 07-09-2023

^^ It is true they didn't make the drums sound boomy in the 70s and prior. They didn't need to. It wasn't until digital became a thing in the 80s they started making the drums sound huge. Gradually downsizing the sound as the decades, and technology to more subtlety compensate for truncation progressed. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. I've heard noticeable cardboardization in my own 16bit transfers, compared to the vinyl source. All other things being equal.

EDIT: live drums must be miced and processed to replicate the recorded sound we've grown accustomed to. That's not the way an un-miced kit sounds.

EDIT No. 2: I intentionally muted the cheap kit I use at work. Using strips of duct tape to press and hold small pieces of packing foam against the bottom tom heads. Otherwise the ringing resonance would be unbearable. It's common practice to place a pillow inside a kick drum. For the same reason.

**Bob Drake** · 07-25-2023

Hi Czyszy,
When it's a human hitting them, I like all kinds of drum sounds, from the dead and muffled to rattly and ringy! I love the variety of sounds possible and how they fit the different songs, and work with the sounds of the other instruments.

BD
www.bdrak.com