Frank Zappa was 'incapable of saying anything fond about anyone or anything"

[rcarlberg]

Has this article been mentioned yet?
https://www.loudersound.com/features/frank-zappa-1970s

The Zappa fanboys will hate it, but it sounds pretty accurate to me, from what I know of Frank.

[chalkpie]

Great article. The guy sounded amazing just to be around, I'm sure his creative energy was palpable. I also don't doubt his perceived crankiness at the world around him. When you hear about him composing in the airports, etc then you know that it wasn't only his passion but his entire raison d'être.

[moecurlythanu]

Faskinaightsking. The dude was definitely a genius, but on the strange side, and a contrarian. All of which went into the stew that made him who he was.

[arturs]

Sounds like he was on the spectrum.

[Baribrotzer]

Sounds like he was on the spectrum.

It's possible.

He did seem to consider relating to and dealing with other people as "a part of his job". It was a performance of sorts to him; he could do it quite well, but didn't necessarily enjoy doing it. What he did enjoy was composing music, and he did that as much as possible. There was a lot of it that no one else ever saw - Steve Vai once spoke of FZ showing him some twenty different reharmonizations of "Village of the Sun".

He also had no publically visible internal life. Only Gail seems to have seen much of what went on inside him. It rarely appeared in his lyrics - the very deep cut "Solitude" was an unconventional love song to Gail, but he stopped playing it when the band guessed that. In fact, his emotions tended to not even be all that audible in his music - except for his extended guitar solo features, which tended to sound like outpourings of crabbiness. Even his tone sounded grouchy.

[Piskie]

I reckon on the spectrum too.

[Dana5140]

Two points. (1) Some of this is nonsensical. I do not ever remember anyone or any record store being so grossed out by Weasels Ripped My Flesh that they refused to carry it. Zappa's record covers were pretty well-known by then and this would not have grossed people out. (2) Not to hijack this thread, but as grandfather to an autistic kid, I think that blaming all non-traditional behavior on undiagnosed autism is ableist thinking. This excuse is used regularly, from criminal trials to excusing the behavior of Elon Muskrat. There is absolutely no evidence that Zappa was autistic, and to suggest so now, many years after his death and without any diagnostic proof, is inappropriate.

The rock press was never terrified of Zappa. This article seems hagiographic to me.

[arturs]

(2) Not to hijack this thread, but as grandfather to an autistic kid, I think that blaming all non-traditional behavior on undiagnosed autism is ableist thinking. This excuse is used regularly, from criminal trials to excusing the behavior of Elon Muskrat. There is absolutely no evidence that Zappa was autistic, and to suggest so now, many years after his death and without any diagnostic proof, is inappropriate.

Just FYI, one of my daughters is on the spectrum. I am intimately aware of the diagnostics, symptoms and life implications. My wife and I worked with child psychologists for years around this issue. So don't assume people are just shit-talking when they mention the spectrum. My informed comment stands. Based on all the symptoms and diagnostic questions asked by doctors, Zappa as per that article exhibits several of the key symptoms of being on the spectrum. If you wish to have a discussion of those in detail, we can do so.

[StarThrower]

It's possible.

He did seem to consider relating to and dealing with other people as "a part of his job". It was a performance of sorts to him; he could do it quite well, but didn't necessarily enjoy doing it. What he did enjoy was composing music, and he did that as much as possible. There was a lot of it that no one else ever saw - Steve Vai once spoke of FZ showing him some twenty different reharmonizations of "Village of the Sun".

He also had no publically visible internal life. Only Gail seems to have seen much of what went on inside him. It rarely appeared in his lyrics - the very deep cut "Solitude" was an unconventional love song to Gail, but he stopped playing it when the band guessed that. In fact, his emotions tended to not even be all that audible in his music - except for his extended guitar solo features, which tended to sound like outpourings of crabbiness. Even his tone sounded grouchy.

That's too bad that you hear it that way. I never get the feeling that crabbiness is being conveyed through his guitar playing. It's obvious that FZ was very concerned about the music having a great feel which is why I find it joyful to listen to. And through the rehearsal tapes released on some of these fault projects we can hear Frank coaching the musicians in the effort to obtain a great performance. I've been listening to the instrumental version of Fifty Fifty (Overnite Sensation 50th box) over an over because it feels so good!

[Dana5140]

Arturs, I would never make a diagnosis based solely on a few small observations and only on what I have read. And I work in healthcare, and make diagnoses. I cannot dispute your take nor your research; I have done the same and for similar reasons. But I think you realize as well as I do that autism is often brought up as a means to describe nonconventional behaviors, as an excuse for those behaviors. And you may see- in what you have read about FZ- signs that may indicate something that suggests autism. But that is all it can be- there is no evidence. We have not observed him closely, are basing our perception on printed works from others with agendas, and so on.

I have a a second grandson who I am convinced is autistic, on the spectrum. He cannot look you in the eye, he speaks in a monotone and without raising his voice, he is often detached from what is going on around him, he lacks empathy for others but is bright (he is attending Tufts U), but he cannot connect with others. I see the signs, but I cannot confirm this at all- I think you understand what I am saying here. His autism is not profound, nor is my younger grandson's- who can calculate square roots in his head when he was 6, can cite his dad's 156 favorite animals in order and who is now a master of Mario Brothers, every game and version. But for years, he could not be around another child without a complete meltdown, flapped his hands and organized his toys regularly.

I would be happy to chat this issue with you. I sincerely mean that.

[arturs]

I would be happy to chat this issue with you. I sincerely mean that.

OK We will leave FZ alone for now... I will plan to PM you over the break (very busy next few days) and tell you a little about my experiences with my kid. Overall it is good news BTW.

[hippypants]

Has this article been mentioned yet?
https://www.loudersound.com/features/frank-zappa-1970s

The Zappa fanboys will hate it, but it sounds pretty accurate to me, from what I know of Frank.

I don't know why anyone would hate it. From what I've read about him, and seen many of the clips on YT it's sounds pretty correct. There were a few mentions in the article:

“And a marriage won’t work if you try and get away with shit. The stuff they might be based on – a relationship with someone else – that might have bothered me, but the songs themselves had a different function: they were just a document, it wasn’t the man himself.

It's no wonder he was as he was, being set up to write a music for a porn film, then busted. Being sued and screwed by record companies and even his band. But he still seem fairly well adjusted to me.

[rcarlberg]

I guess my main takeaway from the article is that Gail Zappa was a saint. Frank obviously adored her, but she put up with a lot of shit.

Not the least, wanting to name his daughter 'Clint Eastwood.'

[Dana5140]

I'll look forward to it as well as to how things are in IA City.

[Trane]

I don't know why anyone would hate it. From what I've read about him, and seen many of the clips on YT it's sounds pretty correct. There were a few mentions in the article:

“And a marriage won’t work if you try and get away with shit. The stuff they might be based on – a relationship with someone else – that might have bothered me, but the songs themselves had a different function: they were just a document, it wasn’t the man himself.

It's no wonder he was as he was, being set up to write a music for a porn film, then busted. Being sued and screwed by record companies and even his band. But he still seem fairly well adjusted to me.

Yeah, from what I know of him and how I perceive him, it doesn't surprise me. It seems on the dot for me, but little do I know.

I guess my main takeaway from the article is that Gail Zappa was a saint. Frank obviously adored her, but she put up with a lot of shit.

Yeah, she must've put up a fair bit of shit from him, but he really was worried about her when she had heavy health issues in the late 70's.

[rcarlberg]

Yeah, she must've put up a fair bit of shit from him, but he really was worried about her when she had heavy health issues in the late 70's.

Yeah. Heavy smoking, which eventually took her out.

Frank Zappa named Barking Pumpkin Records after his wife's chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or smoker's cough.

[wilcox660]

I had asked Frank why he was re-releasing all of his old stuff back in the 80s. He said he heard that folks were paying high prices for some of his back catalogue & he did it so anyone who wanted his music could get it at an affordable price. In my conversations with FZ he was always a nice & caring guy.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Sounds like he was on the spectrum.

I don't think so.

A couple of weeks back at Riksarkivet (the National Archive of Norway) I gave a brief introduction on Zappa's particular approach to systematics in connection with a screening of Alex Winter's excellent documentary on the man, his backstory, career, artistic philosophy and his records keeping. I pointed to three distinct assets of momentum in the film as regards somewhat tendentious subjects surrounding Zappa; a) his "serious" settings and credentials as composer, b) his stance on and attitudes towards the opposite sex and leisure activities with their bodies, not least with concern to his own marriage etc., and c) his apparent impersonal lack of emotive empathy.

In the film, several coworkers/musicians/associates shed light on these matters but especially Ruth Underwood and Bunk Gardner; the latter rather bluntly uttering "I never saw Frank embrace another person!".

And yet still he wrote tonal and/or sonic concessions so brimming with intense if eccentric beauty. The more you listen to his music, the more you realize that this strange and wonderful laminate is somehow always present - either explicit or right underneath.

I don't think he was on the spectrum or otherwise suffering from any mental friction as known. Neither do I believe his avoidance of interpersonal intimacy or confidentiality was due to shyness or commitment issues. In Winter's film there's a section with an interview in which Zappa promptly reveals that he doesn't have any friends except for his wife and four kids - and he seems pretty openhearted about it, without a lament.

Granted I haven't read all biographical material on the man, but from the handful of books and numerous articles and interviews I've encountered throughout the years, Zappa comes across as a realist cynic - someone who basically has understood how there are equal downsides to most things good, and that love or friendship can turn harder back on you the harder they're remitted. I believe it was Ray Collins (early Mothers' singer) who once said that Zappa's experience with his first wife had changed him and his outlook on the world and its people quite dramatically. He was apparently reluctant to speak of it himself.

Zappa was a fanatical individualist not from either choice or force but from sincere and overwhelming conviction due to existential merit, as such promoting originality and idiosyncracy as artistic duties and thus self-insight as a token of ultimate pursuit. He was profoundly obsessed with the notion of character, obviously implying that this was something each and every person must aspire to cultivate in themselves before any demands of respect from the world are made. Accordingly there's little doubt that he could be an outright asshole to some folks, a heroically self-conscious genius to others and an erratic maniac to yet more others.

But I -do- believe he was intentionally acting out a front of insensitive demeanor, not to suppress but rather to protect all access to that inner ideal of beauty from the outer reality more sensibly addressed through sarcasm and distance.

[Trane]

I had asked Frank why he was re-releasing all of his old stuff back in the 80s. He said he heard that folks were paying high prices for some of his back catalogue & he did it so anyone who wanted his music could get it at an affordable price. In my conversations with FZ he was always a nice & caring guy.

No kidding!!!

I remember seeing some Zappa albums going for fortunes (like 100 $) for some not even VG shape seconhand 60's albums at the Vinyl Museum on Yonge St (just north of Dundas) in the mid-80's. Most likely they were original pressings of Freak Out, Absolutely Free and In I For The Money., but still.

b) his stance on and attitudes towards the opposite sex and leisure activities with their bodies, not least with concern to his own marriage etc., and c) his apparent impersonal lack of emotive empathy.

In the film, several coworkers/musicians/associates shed light on these matters but especially Ruth Underwood and Bunk Gardner; the latter rather bluntly uttering "I never saw Frank embrace another person!".

Am I wrong to believe the Zappa never engaged in bumping groupies (including the GTOs) and remained faithfull to Gail?
(no doubt that if he had engaged even once, some "charitable soul" would've reported it to Gail).

[moecurlythanu]

^ If you read the article, you would know the answer to that question.

[Plasmatopia]

I was particularly shocked that he released a "staggering" 23 albums.

[Kcrimso]

I was particularly shocked that he released a "staggering" 23 albums.

John Zorn has released about the same amount of records just in 2023!

[polmico]

John Zorn has released about the same amount of records just in 2023!

Guided By Voices released three albums while you wrote that sentence.

Nothing particularly shocking about the article, but an interesting, nuanced and respectful conversation about autism and, indeed, the conversations that surround it developed from this thread. I’m a disinterested observer and am happy to hear from multiple perspectives.

[Dave (in MA)]

I was particularly shocked that he released a "staggering" 23 albums.

The other several dozens of albums were the ones that weren't quite as staggering.

[pb2015]

He saved some of his tapes for the CD-era series You Can't Stagger on Stage Anymore.