King Crimson Studio Albums Discussion !

[zombywoof]

Hi everyone ! Hope this is an appropriate place to post this, but I wanted to let you know that my friend Mike and I are in the midst of discussing (and eventually ranking) the 13 King Crimson Studio albums. Here's the first two parts, part 3 will follow which will focus on the Adrian Belew era 80's trilogy.





Thanks for watching !

[Batchman]

These are great - thank you! Keep them coming.

[Piskie]

Will check this out. I really enjoyed your one on Heavy Horses box set the other day.

[starless and bible black]

I enjoyed hearing the first two disccussions of KC's Studio Albums; looking forward to hearing the others. Thanks Guys.

[zombywoof]

Thanks everyone !

I put in a marathon editing session yesterday, got all the parts done and scheduled. Look for them to release early on Mondays leading up to the 'supercut' (2 hr 10 min video) on Oct 7 ... the same week as the Red 50th releases. I suggest subscribing if you wanna get the scoop early, but I will continue to update this thread.

[mozo-pg]

I'll check this out for sure.

[zombywoof]

Part 3 out today, featuring the 80's lineup albums with Adrian Belew, Tony Levin, Robert Fripp and Bill Bruford ! Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair.

[zombywoof]

Pt 4 out today, focusing on the three late stage studio albums, Thrak, The ConstruKction / ReconstruKction of Light, and The Power to Believe.

Next Monday is our inevitable ranking video, so you may want to subscribe if you don't want to miss !

[zombywoof]

Our ranking is live !

[zombywoof]

Out today is the full 2 hr supercut of this discussion !



If you enjoy this, please comment-like-subscribe ! We respond to enthusiasm!

[trondis23]

I finally took the time to watch the whole discussion. It was interesting and fun to watch your enthusiasm about certain albums. But your ranking? I think that, in general, ranking us quite meaningless. Music is all about taste and the mood of the day, so nobody will ever agree about a ranking. But your ranking is completely wrong. Here is the correct one (best to worst):

1) Lizard, 2) Islands, 3) In The Wake of Poseidon, 4) In The Court of the Crimson King, 5) Starless and Bible Black, 6, Larks Tongues in Aspic and 7) Red. Number 1, 2 and 7 I am sure of, the rest can vary. The title track of "Larks" is better than anything on SABB, but I have possibly played that album so many times that I am a bit tired of it. The same with "Court" vs "Poseidon".

Lizard is their most complex album, with multiple styles mixed in a perfect symbiosis. I never get tired of listening to it since there are so many details and moods and fantastic playing. I bought this album in 1970, so it has been with me for a long time. Fripp must have worked his ass off to compose, arrange and record this album. According to Gordon Haskell he was a bully with his musicians and made drummer Andy McCullogh cry and himself laugh. Genius Fripp included his insane laughter to end the song "Indoor Games", which is a highlight. It seems like the recording of Lizard was traumatic for Fripp also, and he probably thought "never again". So Islands is a more toned down album. But it is still one of their greatest. "Formentera Lady" and "Sailors Tale" played together has eargasmic qualities. Great improvisations on both. "The Letters" is a recycled and rearranged song from the first lineup, with new lyrics. I love how they play on contrasting dynamics - from extremely soft to extremely loud. Nice melody and impros too. "Prelude: Song of the Gulls" has nothing to do with King Crimson. None of them play on it, and it is something that Fripp probably had in his drawer and used because he was short on material. But it still fits in somehow. "Islands" is a quiet and beautiful song with some great impros from guest Mark Charig. You think that "Ladies of the Road" is Crimsons worst song. I strongly disagree. It is a catchy pop song, although the lyrics might be a bit dated. I like it a lot. What Lizard and Islands have in common is their great players: Mel Collins is by far my favorite sideman, and guest Keith Tippett is one of the most incredible piano players I have heard. The other guests are also great. These albums are also the only ones where Fripp is the only composer of all the songs. Fripp himself comes out as a completely original guitarist and does some of his best work. Nobody, including himself, has done something similar before or since. At the same time his is quite restrained - he doesn't play guitar at all in long stretches on some songs.

Red as the least favorite? Yes, I never clicked on this album. When I first heard it in 1974 I didn't like it enough to buy it, and it is the only Crimson album I didn't buy. But I have listened to it a number of times since. I thought that there must be some reason why so many name it as their favorite. I still haven't found that reason. I actually listened to it again yesterday - twice. First the new "Elementary mixes" on Tidal, then the original mix. The elementary mixes is a mess, but it is interesting that Mark Charig originally played a lot more on Starless. When I listened to the original mix afterwards I thought that this is a mess too. Side 1, except the start of Fallen Angel, is a sound soup where all the instruments are drowned and you don't hear the single instruments so well. I was wondering if I should buy the new Atmos mix, which hopefully will make it clearer. But I am not sure if I like the songs enough to do it. I do like Fripp's one-note anti-solo on Starless, and the improvised piece, Providence, which starts very quiet with the violin. Finally some rest to the ears after the aural assault on the first three songs.

What about the rest of the Crimson catalogue? For me this sounds like a completely different group. They were going to call themselves Discipline, and nowadays they call themselves Beat, but they chose King Crimson for marketing reasons. The concept is different from the original Crimson in so many ways. While the original Crimson had a colourful instrumentation, the new Crimson is monochrome. No wood, just metal strings. And also no variation in dynamics - it has for the most part the same volume and intensity throughout the songs. They are funky, sometimes a bit poppy, with interesting cross rhythms and the interlocking guitars. For the first time Crimson have a front man. Belew is not just a new singer, he is a completely different kind of singer. He also appears to be the most creative guitarist. I love his solos. Fripp, on the other hand, seems to repeat his already established style of playing: Long sustains, sometimes incredibly fast playing, and soundscapes. The ranking? In order of appearance, I suppose. I think that Discipline is a great album. The next two are more of the same. Still great, but not so many new ideas. Thrak was a disappointment to me. It was marketed as a "double trio". I expected two trios playing against each other with some exiting cross rhythms. But they had abandoned this idea and went for a big sound instead. So this is not a double trio, it is a sextet. After Thrak they played a number of improvised concerts with only parts of the group. The purpose was to get inspiration for a new direction for the group. That failed. The next two albums are for the most part recirculated ideas. But they went for a full metal sound with distorted guitars and electronics. There are fewer songs, and they decided to distort Belews voice on all of them. I am not sure of the ranking of the last three albums. I like them less than the rest of Crimson's output, but I still listen to them from time to time. I don't think that they are bad.

[chalkpie]

^ How do you really feel is the question.....

[trondis23]

^ How do you really feel is the question.....

I don't hear the greatness of Red, while they don't hear the greatness of Islands. Which probably means that both albums are great, but for different people. We agree that King Crimson is a great band that never made a bad record.

[chalkpie]

Red isn't my fav KC album either. Starless and Red are timeless gems, but the the other three are good tunes. It's not a masterpiece imo, but a great album.

[wilcox660]

I don't rank them, but my love of Lizard is boundless!

[Mister Triscuits]

I don't rank them, but my love of Lizard is boundless

…and bible black!

[vmartell]

I don't rank them, but my love of Lizard is boundless!

+10000

My favourite Crim album! Even details like Gordon Haskell's lack of respect for the material... made it better! The sarcastic detachment you can hear when he sings just contributed to the general uneasiness of the album that IMHO creates great atmosphere... Obviously the musical content... The menace of Cirkus, the evil Jazz Rock of Indoor Games/Happy Family. The devastating beauty of the classical section of Lizard, the wonderful weirdness of the Free Jazz section and the snarl of the Heavy Prog section of it... amazing.

We have 50th Anniversary editions ( 4 CDs + Bluray with hires and multichannel) of ITCKC, LTIA, Red. Any theories or info on whether we are getting those for other albums? Would love them for those less appreciated albums of 70s Crimson, Lizard of course, and Islands... which is my 2nd favourite Crimson album... Lizard, Islands, ITCKC, that is the order for me.

Something tells that those 3 are what we are getting from 70s Crimson. If another one is coming, it will probably be Discipline, IMHO.

Any opinions? Info?

Thnx!

[Trane]

TBH, I skipped & FFWD'd most of these vids, and their lengths did scare me away.

I don't rank them, but my love of Lizard is boundless!

…and bible black!

LOL, even Broof didn't think of that one.

+10000

My favourite Crim album! Even details like Gordon Haskell's lack of respect for the material... made it better! The sarcastic detachment you can hear when he sings just contributed to the general uneasiness of the album that IMHO creates great atmosphere... Obviously the musical content... The menace of Cirkus, the evil Jazz Rock of Indoor Games/Happy Family. The devastating beauty of the classical section of Lizard, they wonderful weirdness of the Free Jazz section and the snarl of the Heavy Prog section of it.. amazing.

Yup, despite hating it, Haskell's disrespect for it is part of the artistic success (that you state so well) of the album, IMHO.
Battle of The Glass Tears is my fave moment and the ultimate instrumental interplay (you can feel those trebuchet-catapults stones crashing a couple of meters away from you)


None of the 70's albums are perfect to my ears, as there is always a glitch somewhere:

Court is a stone-cold classic, but let's face it, Moonchild is a Skip FFWD after the sung part is over
Wake has those Peace interludes which annoy me in repeated plays, but the self-plagiarism of the A-side of Court is still an issue with me.
Lizard my fave of the lot, but... Dancing Waters is weak and Big Top is an earsore. Even Peacock is "betterable"
Island some weak moments and lengths (including the guitar on steroids) and as much as I enjoy Prelude, it's got nothing to do there.
Aspic Saturdays is still cringey after decades.
Bible love the flipside, but there isn't much on the A-side I really want to hear anymore
Red Starless & Fallen Angel are the ones I retain. I can do without the rest after decades of listening to it.


my take:
Lizard, Court, Aspic

Red, Wake, Island

Bible

[Dave (in MA)]

Anyone enjoying their Red 50th yet?

After Amazon failed to even give me an estimated ship date for the preorder 3 days after it was released, I canceled the order and went with Burning Shed instead.

[Hunchentootz]

Anyone enjoying their Red 50th yet?

After Amazon failed to even give me an estimated ship date for the preorder 3 days after it was released, I canceled the order and went with Burning Shed instead.

I am. Mine showed up from BShed on Sunday! Fast shipping. So far I am enjoying the instrumentals and elements. Starless solos and build tracks are interesting. Love the solo Mellotron track.

[zombywoof]

My thoughts on the new edition of Red, with a particular emphasis on the new 2024 mixes. Check it out !