Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
I read that article in the magazine. "Self-diagnosis" seems a bit suspect. That does not mean that he is not on the spectrum, but I would think getting it tested by a real doctor might be worth checking into.Originally Posted by Scott Bails
I'mma say no.
Please don't ask questions, just use google.
Never let good music get in the way of making a profit.
I'm only here to reglaze my bathtub.
At this point in his life he probably doesn't want to know, it doesn't really change anything for him. I've also gotten a depression diagnosis and have long suspected l am on the wrong end of the spectrum somewhere, but l don't really want to know either. It wouldn't change or improve my circumstances, nor Fish's either.
And will l wait forever beside the silent mirror and fish for bitter minnows amongst the weeds and slimy water?
Have to disagree. My ADHD diagnosis at 62 not only explained a lot about my life, it also gave me access to tools (including drugs, which aren't really an option for the spectrum) that help me manage my life better and become truly competent at a lot of things that I'd always known how to do but always managed to F up when I did them. One of my closest friends -- a priest, incidentally -- <i>was</i> diagnosed with Asperger's, before it got merged into "the spectrum," and it was lifechanging for him also.
Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.
Good points.
I have a friend who I have known since 5th grade that has a remarkably similar situation. He was also diagnosed with ADHD at around 60 years old. Knowing this guy as long as I have it came as no surprise to me as I suspected he had ADHD for as long as I have known him, but I am no doctor. He originally went to the doctor because he and his wife were afraid he was getting dementia, but it was diagnosed as ADHD. Like you he now has access to treatments, under a doctors care, that has improved his quality of life.
"Grrrr" incoming
In college I took a "psychology of the abnormal" class and one of the very first lessons is to never, EVER try to self-diagnose. Most anyone can look at a random subset of symptoms and see a bit of themselves, and then make that sort of bold declaration in the absence of any professional diagnosis (this also applies to folks who get a rash and go to Google before the doctor, and then go into panics at all the extreme horrors they might have).
My sister has clinically-diagnosed ADD (not ADHD because there is a difference) and there were a very clear & specific set of tests she went through that led to her diagnosis. And like some of the folks here (or friends of folks here), that diagnosis led to a treatment plan that changed her life substantially; she went from someone who was told she'd maybe find a career in a beauty salon to someone who graduated with a bachelors in psychology. I also have a condition I do not care to discuss (other than to say "none of the above"), but it was also something that was only determined through testing. And that diagnosis, while not as impactful as for my sister, absolutely helped shift and improve things for me in the years since.
Fish might well be on the spectrum. He also very well may not. Purely IMHO but I find it a little tasteless when a public figure makes those sorts of declarations without any real evidence to back them up. For me, it sends a wrong message that just grates on me.
Now that I've thrown my grumpy $0.02 into the hat, I'll leave it be
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
On one end of the spectrum, one would be ultra-sensitive to sound. Precluding fronting a loud rock band. On the other end of the spectrum, one would have an extraordinary ear for music. Making one the ideal candidate to front a band. Perhaps a little of the former influenced Fish's decision to leave Marillion, among other reasons. Without him being able to articulate it at the time.
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama
[QUOTE=battema;1257286...I took a "psychology of the abnormal" class and one of the very first lessons is to never, EVER try to self-diagnose. Most anyone can look at a random subset of symptoms and see a bit of themselves, and then make that sort of bold declaration in the absence of any professional diagnosis...[/QUOTE]
Absolutely correct. There's even a name for it: DSM syndrome. The DSM, or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual [of Mental Disorders], is one of the most dangerous books in the world. It contains descriptions of hundreds of "mental disorders" (some of which I would not call disorders at all but simple neurodiversities), and it is well known among psychiatrists, psychologists, and pretty much anyone who's ever taken Psych 101 that if you start reading about a random "disorder," the odds are better than even you'll think it's describing you to a tee. Then you pick another one and it seems to describe you.
This is because most "mental disorders" don't involve strange behavior or beliefs; they involve neurotypical ("normal") behaviors, beliefs, thought patterns, etc., dialed up to eleven.
In announcing his self-diagnosis, Fish is simply making a public ass of himself.
Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.
^^ I think that's a little harsh. Fish likely believes what he is saying.
What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound (2112)
He likely does, but the Fish Counselor is likely correct in his assessment. (See what I did there?)
Yes, a bit the same for me. Someone who was supposed to help me to get a job, wanted me to be tested for autism, because she thought I was on the spectrum, based on my problems when I was a child, my lack of friends and contacts and some other things, like an above average IQ. Well I did reject being tested, because I didn't consider it of much use. It would only mean another label to make my life more difficult. At some point I landed with an organisation that was aimed on training people with autism to become software testers. Alas it never resulted in something.
I never said, or suggested, that he didn't. I'm saying that there's a better than even chance that he's wrong.
Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.
Some of Fish' actions in the late 80's seemed rather extreme. Maybe it was more of a drug/alcohol abuse issue.
I watched a Fish On Friday episode a few weeks ago where he touched on the autism thing. I totally agree you can't self diagnose something like that.
JG
"MARKLAR!"
Ultimately, people see what they want to see. My brother who is not a professional medical doctor or psychiatrist tried to diagnose me and practically force me to admit that I have aspergers (this was 10-12 years ago when it was still called aspergers and not yet subsumed into ASD). My brother is a teacher who works with special needs students so in his opinion that gave him some kind of expertise. I seriously do not believe I have aspergers nor am I autistic and this was a serious bone of contention for a while between my brother and I (we were never really very close to begin with and still aren't although these days we are civil to eachother and occasionally send each other text messages). I do, however, believe I have adhd which is something that I struggle with (especially the executive functioning aspect). I don't currerntly take meds but I'm still researching how to get by without them (which so far definitely seems possible). As for the manual I know of it but don't know much about it. I'll have to research it more just like I need to research the Meyers-Briggs personality test.
As for self diagnosing, I suppose that can be a slippery slope. Many people do it. I know that the actress Daryl Hannah (who is married to Neil Young btw) diagnosed herself as autistic as did Dan Akroyd (who ironically was in a movie with Daryl). There are other people who have suspected they have it and there has also been people from history who others have suspected have autism (Thomas Jefferson and Nikola Tesla are the first to come to mind). Anyway, it's always best to see a professional if possible.
Finally, as far as Fish goes I actually met him once and he was non-verbal to me so it's definitely possible that he is autistic (non-verbal being one aspect of it). This was after his performance at Nearfest in the lobby area of the hotel where the after hours parties were held. I told him how much I liked the clutching at straws album and shook his hand but he remained silent. Some people said he didn't say anything because he was intoxicated. Maybe. Robert Fripp was also non verbal to me so what's his excuse?
Last edited by Digital_Man; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:39 PM.
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
Not sure what time of the night you met him, but by the wee hours of the morning he was absolutely hammered. He was partying and carrying on with many of the NEARfest attendees in the ballroom of the hotel. I distinctly remember at one point he got into a political argument with a group of people at a table and slammed his humongous fist down on the table with a loud bang. All the conversation in the room stopped and everyone turned to look where it had come from. By the end of the night, he was feeling no pain. I am sure there were several members of prog ears in that room that night. I remember talking to you there, but don’t remember what time it was. The whole thing was a legendary NEARfest moment.Finally, as far as Fish goes I actually met him once and he was non-verbal to me so it's definitely possible that he is autistic (non-verbal being one aspect of it). This was after his performance at Nearfest in the lobby area of the hotel where the after hours parties were held. I told him how much I liked the clutching at straws album and shook his hand but he remained silent. Some people said he didn't say anything because he was intoxicated. Maybe. Robert Fripp was also non verbal to me so what's his excuse?
I very well could have talked to you then. I don't remember. I know I probably talked to a lot of people that night and at those parties in general. It probably wasn't that late (or early in the morning) because I typically would leave by 12 midnight at the latest. My guess would be that this was somewhere between 10 pm and 11:30 but I have no way of knowing for sure. It's vvery possible I left soon after that. At the time I thought it was very unusual for someone to not say anything. I didn't (and still don't) get that at all especially when I have heard him talking to others. Roine Stolt was also rather weird when I talked to him at Rosfest and although he probably said more than Fish (which wouldn't take much) he was also very silent as was Robert Frip when I tried talking to him when he opened up for Porcupine Tree in 2005.
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
If I am remembering this all correctly (which these days you never know), Fish was in the ballroom several hours after midnight and it was like 2 or 3AM-sh when he went up to his room.
That could very well be. I just know that I typically didn't stay up really late into the very early morning hours but I know it was Fish who I approached and I know it was after hours (how late or the exact time I can't say for sure). I guess it all doesn't really matter at this point and he very well could have been hammered but last I checked being drunk isn't an excuse to be non-verbal. That's just my opinion anyway. Also, I'm not saying he is autistic or isn't just that being non-verbal is one indicator. Maybe drinking brings out the autistic side in him. I don't know. Maybe he just has what used to be called aspergers (which now would be mild autism).
Do not suffer through the game of chance that plays....always doors to lock away your dreams (To Be Over)
As someone who is definitely on the spectrum (have been diagnosed for basically my whole life) and hangs out in spaces based around autism online, I think some of y'alls dismissal of self-diagnosis is a little off base. Not that I don't understand, especially knowing that most people here are decades older than me, and I don't want to be one to get angry at older generations for not seeing something the way young people do. Sometimes self-diagnosis is the only choice people have, whether due to lack of money, unsupportive families that won't allow testing (for young people), worries that getting a formal diagnosis would lead to more complications later in life (For example, immigration), and so on. I don't know if those problems do exist for Fish, I mean none of the celebrities mentioned in this thread had to turn it down based on money, but there's plenty of circumstances where self-diagnosis is valid. I think that if people have the money and are in the position to do so, they should try to turn a self-diagnosis into a formal one, but even if they don't for whatever reason, it's really not a big deal. It's better all around to believe people when they say things like this, especially people you don't know in real life at all. It's better for people who are disabled but unable to get a diagnosis, and if a few people slip through the cracks thinking they're mildly on the spectrum when they actually aren't, it's not that bad.
Snikle,
The main danger of self-diagnosis is that it can be utterly wrong, leading to the wrong (self-)treatment. Before my ADHD diagnosis, I was convinced that I was on the spectrum*. Going with that instead of getting a proper diagnosis would have led me down a path where I would never have gotten the help I needed: and, since ADHD had already cost me two jobs, I would probably still be struggling to keep a job -- instead of being arguably the most-respected member of my department.
Being on the spectrum -- like ADHD, like almost any neurodiversity/"mental illness" -- is quantitative, not qualitative. That is: there is nothing in most neurodiverse conditions that is not present in the neurotypical condition; it's just that the proportions are different. This makes it easy for people who have a slight (and completely rational) fear of heights to conclude that they are acrophobic, or to "justify" wrong behavior by blaming it on assumed conditions: "I can't help it, I'm a kleptomaniac/sadist/whatever."
As Theodore Sturgeon observed, it is important to remember that the fetishist who loves old shoes loves loving old shoes. If your own behavior seems weird to you, the chances are that it isn't a neurodiverse condition but a neurosis of some sort. For the first six decades of my life, I could not understand how most of the people around me managed to be so organized; I could make a plan, if you held me down and forced me; but I couldn't stick to it to save my life. On the other side of that coin, my wife could not understand why I couldn't follow a plan, or keep my office neat. To be honest, I still don't really understand, emotionally, how people can be so organized: but, with effort I can, with some concentration, do the things that make organization happen.
________
* Some ADHD behaviors can look a lot like some spectrum behaviors. For example, getting so absorbed in something that you literally don't hear someone trying to get your attention. After my close friend, who exhibits some of the same behaviors I do, was diagnosed with Asperger's -- this was before we spoke of "the spectrum" -- I was convinced that I was probably in that ballpark also. Wrong.
Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.
IMHO a private citizen who choses to make a self-diagnosis is a slightly different matter, and while I still think a formal assessment followed by treatment is the best approach, it's a personal choice. No harm done beyond a possible (not guaranteed) lost opportunity at a better life due to a formal treatment plan.
I am more bothered when it is a public figure such as Fish. Especially if they are wrong, because celebrities carry a degree of weight and presumed authority on/validity about a subject.
This is how I feel about celebrities and any of the numerous highly-contentious subjects that are outside the acceptable topics of PE, to be honest.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
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