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Thread: Behringer synthesizers

  1. #26
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Because I don't want to clutter the synthesizer gear porn thread, I decided to start a seperate thread about this manufacturer, who seem to raise very strong opinions. Some seem to hate Uli Behringer, while others consider him the savior of synthesizers, who deserves the same honour as Robert Moog, Alan R. Pearlman, Tom Oberheim and the other pioneers.

    I have to admit that some business practices by Behringer are perhaps unethical, like for instance cloning stuff that is still around, like the Arturia Keystep.

    This guy made an interesting video:



    Still they have some interesting clones as well, like the MS-5, which is a Roland SH-5 clone, a synthesizer that is not available, exept perhaps as a soft-synth, or the System 55 (and the smaller ones), that are basicly Moog modular clones. They have also some ARP2500 and Roland system 100m modules cloned.

    Anyone having experiences with Behringer synthesizers, or having some opinion?


    I finally got around to watching this video. Obviously a scummy company in many of their business practices. Now that I know that I'd definitely think twice before giving them money. And it truly sucks that they would go after small companies who are trying to carve out a niche for themselves.

    Copying everything about someone else's design (a clone) without bringing anything new to it also really sucks, whether it's totally legal or not. It's sort of low-effort and hard to respect. But in the cases where the original technology was created decades ago it's a bit harder to be sympathetic to those whose designs were copied.

    The company I work for has a razor/razor blade type situation. We sell plasma cutters (razors) and the torches, nozzles, electrodes, etc. (razor blades) and the latter is our bread and butter. We work very hard at R&D to design the consumables - development can take years to perfect something that offers unique value. We buy our competitor's products and benchmark them and put them through the brutal testing we put our own stuff through to see how they stack up to our equipment. But we are still finding people who copy our stuff and didn't put in the work, sometimes creating completely counterfeit product with our name on it. Sometimes they don't do anything, just update their own product brochures to claim their stuff does what we spent years to develop.

    But we also have a waterjet business, which is probably more analogous to the vintage synth situation. Waterjet technology has been around for 60+ years. There are several waterjet companies out there, but in many ways it's a very mature technology and truly disruptive innovations are rare (and difficult! I've been involved in these efforts). The consumable side of things is less profitable too and it's hard to differentiate - every company buys mixing tubes and diamond orifices from the same couple of companies. A few years back we had a guy steal all our design info and left to start his own aftermarket parts company and he undercuts many companies, the irony being perhaps that we were also selling aftermarket parts of items we'd reverse engineered from other companies, lol. But the designs are old and have no IP protection. It sucks, but the only way out is further innovation to offer value that no one else has. The cost of innovating in waterjet is MUCH higher than for plasma and to do the equivalent level of robustness testing for waterjet as we do for plasma is not only cost-prohibitive but would take much, much longer. (But I digress - development of an analog synth should be relatively short and simple.)

    If you're just selling a Moog that has been virtually unchanged for decades you will be in a similar boat without continued innovation. It sucks to be up against a massive bully company with deep pockets.
    <sig out of order>

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmatopia View Post
    I finally got around to watching this video. Obviously a scummy company in many of their business practices. Now that I know that I'd definitely think twice before giving them money. And it truly sucks that they would go after small companies who are trying to carve out a niche for themselves.

    Copying everything about someone else's design (a clone) without bringing anything new to it also really sucks, whether it's totally legal or not. It's sort of low-effort and hard to respect. But in the cases where the original technology was created decades ago it's a bit harder to be sympathetic to those whose designs were copied.

    The company I work for has a razor/razor blade type situation. We sell plasma cutters (razors) and the torches, nozzles, electrodes, etc. (razor blades) and the latter is our bread and butter. We work very hard at R&D to design the consumables - development can take years to perfect something that offers unique value. We buy our competitor's products and benchmark them and put them through the brutal testing we put our own stuff through to see how they stack up to our equipment. But we are still finding people who copy our stuff and didn't put in the work, sometimes creating completely counterfeit product with our name on it. Sometimes they don't do anything, just update their own product brochures to claim their stuff does what we spent years to develop.

    But we also have a waterjet business, which is probably more analogous to the vintage synth situation. Waterjet technology has been around for 60+ years. There are several waterjet companies out there, but in many ways it's a very mature technology and truly disruptive innovations are rare (and difficult! I've been involved in these efforts). The consumable side of things is less profitable too and it's hard to differentiate - every company buys mixing tubes and diamond orifices from the same couple of companies. A few years back we had a guy steal all our design info and left to start his own aftermarket parts company and he undercuts many companies, the irony being perhaps that we were also selling aftermarket parts of items we'd reverse engineered from other companies, lol. But the designs are old and have no IP protection. It sucks, but the only way out is further innovation to offer value that no one else has. The cost of innovating in waterjet is MUCH higher than for plasma and to do the equivalent level of robustness testing for waterjet as we do for plasma is not only cost-prohibitive but would take much, much longer. (But I digress - development of an analog synth should be relatively short and simple.)

    If you're just selling a Moog that has been virtually unchanged for decades you will be in a similar boat without continued innovation. It sucks to be up against a massive bully company with deep pockets.
    Well, their improvements, if you want to call it so, are adding MIDI and bigger polyfony on their polyphonic clones. Buying their MS-5 is not that wrong for me, nor would buying their modular stuff, because the original makers don't produce it anymore, or perhaps just software versions, which in some cases are also made by other companies. I wouldn't buy their Grandmother clone. The original is still available and I would prefer the Matriarch.

  3. #28
    Today I saw this video about some Behringer clones of Moog stuff that is currently on the market.



    This comment says a lot:

    @voidmusic549
    1 jaar geleden (bewerkt)
    You are wrong in everything you are saying cause you are watching it from the wrong point of view. The thing here is not damaging the already happy moog owners. We don’t envy you.

    It’s damaging the whole r&d behind these products.
    you don’t see that without revenues for moog there would be no r&d, and without r&d you wouldn’t have got the original products, and hence the moog clones from behringer.
    It's a reaction to this comment:
    @krazywabbit
    1 jaar geleden
    The music space is fun and expensive. Not everyone is flushed with cash. The focus on cloning is getting old. Behringer does nothing financially or physically to harm a Moog owner. Only emotionally. If a product allows someone to enter the space and have fun, I’m all for that versus the mess we see in our daily newsfeed. When we pump the brakes on worrying what others use and throttle our gas pedal of what we have and enjoy, we can get back to doing what brought us into this space. Good points made in the video.
    I think there is a difference between what is Behringer doing with it's clones of Moog stuff that is still on the market and synth makers of the past.
    Moog created a performance synthesizer with the MiniMoog
    ARP came with a more or less simular synth, the ARP2600.
    One could consider the ARP Odysee as kind of easier to work with spin-off.
    Other makers answered with their own more or less simular models, like the:
    Roland SH-5 and SH-7
    Korg MS20
    Cat
    Still they were all different, even though they all had more or less a simular set-up, with 2 oscilators a filter and envelope generators.

    Behringer is just cloning stuff and just make them look a bit different and perhaps add something to prevent problems with copyright enfringement.

  4. #29
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    The nutshell. They just want your cashola. Like voidmusic549 says, without the R/D by the OG humans, there'd be no Cylons.

  5. #30
    To me they are just another company that makes things that you could buy. I think they enjoy playing off the 'controversies' to get more attention.

    I currently own a Deepmind 12 and Pro 1, and enjoy them very much. Have owned but sold a Model D, Odyssey, K-2, Pro-800, Wasp, and TD-3.

    I personally think someone needed to make old clones on a more mass marketing basis, not just as boutique releases, and B saw this market.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by zeprogmeister View Post
    To me they are just another company that makes things that you could buy. I think they enjoy playing off the 'controversies' to get more attention.

    I currently own a Deepmind 12 and Pro 1, and enjoy them very much. Have owned but sold a Model D, Odyssey, K-2, Pro-800, Wasp, and TD-3.

    I personally think someone needed to make old clones on a more mass marketing basis, not just as boutique releases, and B saw this market.
    Still I think there is a difference between building cheap clones from old synthesizers and cheap clones of synthesizers that are currently made, like the new Moog stuff, or the Arturia Keystep.

  7. #32
    Member clivey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Still I think there is a difference between building cheap clones from old synthesizers and cheap clones of synthesizers that are currently made, like the new Moog stuff, or the Arturia Keystep.
    Well whatever they do I hope that you enjoy the new MS-5 synth when you eventually pull the trigger. I have to say this vid certainly whets the appetite. Help.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by clivey View Post
    Well whatever they do I hope that you enjoy the new MS-5 synth when you eventually pull the trigger. I have to say this vid certainly whets the appetite. Help.
    I've seen that one. A lot of stuff that has been anounced before, so it's a lot of wait and see what will turn up and when it will turn up. It looks like Behringer is good at anouncing stuff and perhaps first wants to see how much interest there is, before they release something.

    At this moment I'm still waiting for some answers on questions on the keyboardstand I want to buy. The biggest question is basicly about putting 2 keyboards at the top level, which means I need an extra support at the back, but considering the upper keyboards will be tilted and the holders for the keyboards are only connected to the front support https://www.thomann.de/nl/jaspers_3r_150b.htm I wonder if the support on the back brings much support.

  9. #34
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Still I think there is a difference between building cheap clones from old synthesizers and cheap clones of synthesizers that are currently made, like the new Moog stuff, or the Arturia Keystep.
    I agree. It's tough because there's no third party with legal authority to go after copyright/patent infringers (at least in the US....no idea how it works in other countries). It all relies on the ability of the rights holder to mount an expensive legal challenge and win. Not always an option for small companies that are struggling to stay afloat.
    <sig out of order>

  10. #35

  11. #36
    Espen Kraft made a video about new synthesizers, he basicly consider scams, because they are glorified VSTs. He also is not very enthousiast abouth Behringer synths, because of the building quality. Besides he seems to consider that most sounds can be recreated on VST-instruments. The only new synth he seems to like is the Hydrasynth.



    I'm not sure I agree. Basicly I think working with real knobs beats working on a computerscreen. One could consider the Nord G2 Engine also as a glorified VST and well, there is something to it. Besides one needs a computer to work with it. On the other hand it doesn't draw processingpower from the computer.

  12. #37
    The Hydrasynth is pretty amazing and a bit unique. It's really versatile and packed with features; I've owned one for years and still don't feel like I've scratched even 50% of the potential.
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  13. #38
    This article is kind of cool and I do agree with several of his picks

    https://www.gearnews.com/modern-synth-classics/
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    This article is kind of cool and I do agree with several of his picks

    https://www.gearnews.com/modern-synth-classics/
    Interesting article. I might agree with several picks as well, if only from the descriptions. On the other hand, at this moment I prefer a synth I can work with and not something that would take a lot of learning, to get everything from it. I have several softsynths I never used, because of that, so I would probably rather start to explore those, before spending money on a hardware synth with a steep learning curve, no matter how interesting they look.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Interesting article. I might agree with several picks as well, if only from the descriptions. On the other hand, at this moment I prefer a synth I can work with and not something that would take a lot of learning, to get everything from it. I have several softsynths I never used, because of that, so I would probably rather start to explore those, before spending money on a hardware synth with a steep learning curve, no matter how interesting they look.
    That's actually part of the reason I've not been able to go deeper with the Hydrasynth. On one hand I really do think the panel layout and overall flow is impressively intuitive with lots of clever UI features (like the fact that the envelope and LFO buttons actually pulse in sync with the actual operations). On the other hand, it's got some serious differences like the mutators that are just a little different from what I'm used to. So, it's not something that I can easily dive into in a few hours and master.

    Still....I appreciate the potential
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    That's actually part of the reason I've not been able to go deeper with the Hydrasynth. On one hand I really do think the panel layout and overall flow is impressively intuitive with lots of clever UI features (like the fact that the envelope and LFO buttons actually pulse in sync with the actual operations). On the other hand, it's got some serious differences like the mutators that are just a little different from what I'm used to. So, it's not something that I can easily dive into in a few hours and master.

    Still....I appreciate the potential
    Has it possibilities to store sounds on the computer?

    That's what I'm missing with the Waldorf Blofeld.

  17. #42
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    This article is kind of cool and I do agree with several of his picks

    https://www.gearnews.com/modern-synth-classics/
    If money was no object (and it's a monolith), I'd go for the 3rd Wave. The sounds that thing produces are otherworldly.

  18. #43
    I've seen some reaction videos on the Espen Kraft video. One is playing a bit to much on the person, I think, stating that Espen Kraft is from a socialist country and doesn't earn music with making music or creating sounds for synthesizers he has no right to speak. Even though the reaction has some good points, it still annoys me. As if you are only allowed to have an opinion on synthesizers if you make money with them.

  19. #44
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    I've seen some reaction videos on the Espen Kraft video. One is playing a bit to much on the person, I think, stating that Espen Kraft is from a socialist country and doesn't earn music with making music or creating sounds for synthesizers he has no right to speak. Even though the reaction has some good points, it still annoys me. As if you are only allowed to have an opinion on synthesizers if you make money with them.
    Espen posts reaction/demonstration videos, right? He's approaching 100,000 subscribers. His videos have ads, which means they're monetized.

    Yeah, I think he's making some money *with* synthesizers.

    P.S. I see he posts originals, too.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by dropforge View Post
    Espen posts reaction/demonstration videos, right? He's approaching 100,000 subscribers. His videos have ads, which means they're monetized.

    Yeah, I think he's making some money *with* synthesizers.

    P.S. I see he posts originals, too.
    Well, the idea was more like making money playing them for a living and/or making sounds for a living and not making videos and monetizing them by adds. I think a lot of people do that, either with adds, or by promoting certain products, like for instance David Bennett (not completely sure if that's the way the name is spelled). You also have the two blokes that make weekly videos on Behringer.

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