Behringer synthesizers

[Rarebird]

Because I don't want to clutter the synthesizer gear porn thread, I decided to start a seperate thread about this manufacturer, who seem to raise very strong opinions. Some seem to hate Uli Behringer, while others consider him the savior of synthesizers, who deserves the same honour as Robert Moog, Alan R. Pearlman, Tom Oberheim and the other pioneers.

I have to admit that some business practices by Behringer are perhaps unethical, like for instance cloning stuff that is still around, like the Arturia Keystep.

This guy made an interesting video:



Still they have some interesting clones as well, like the MS-5, which is a Roland SH-5 clone, a synthesizer that is not available, exept perhaps as a soft-synth, or the System 55 (and the smaller ones), that are basicly Moog modular clones. They have also some ARP2500 and Roland system 100m modules cloned.

Anyone having experiences with Behringer synthesizers, or having some opinion?

[Pekka]

I have a Behringer Wasp and Monopoly synths. Both clones of old synths no longer available and also ones I could never afford and/or maintain in good playing condition.
Both have worked fine and after years of playing one oscillator analog synths (I have Yamaha CS-5 and CS01) having two (Wasp) and four (Monopoly) oscillators has really opened up a lot of possibilities.
I'd love to own old originals but as my main job is a bass player I can't really afford to put too much money into "a hobby" 'though I do use the synths for writing and recording.

[battema]

(ha ha...didn't realize I posted my response in the wrong thread last night )

In all truth, I am a little put off by some of the stories about the company and how they do business. So I personally give them a pass unless something truly unmissable appears.

That said....some of their clones are an amazing and amazingly affordable way for folks to have access to reasonably-authentic vintage clones. I can't/won't fault anyone who enjoys their gear

[Rarebird]

I have a Behringer Wasp and Monopoly synths. Both clones of old synths no longer available and also ones I could never afford and/or maintain in good playing condition.
Both have worked fine and after years of playing one oscillator analog synths (I have Yamaha CS-5 and CS01) having two (Wasp) and four (Monopoly) oscillators has really opened up a lot of possibilities.
I'd love to own old originals but as my main job is a bass player I can't really afford to put too much money into "a hobby" 'though I do use the synths for writing and recording.

Well I have a free software version of the Korg Mono/Poly from Full Bucket.
I have the MS-5 on my wishlist and I will probably order it if I've recorded the composition I'm currently working on.
The MS-5 is a Roland SH-5 clone, a synthesizer I used to see in the window of a famous music store in The Hague, which I really loved and though it looked cool. Someone even wrote a book on the store, where a lot of famous Dutch artists had bought their equipment. In a way it was a bit of a weird store. To prevent theft, they had a gate after the entrance. When you entered there was a counter with someone in a dust coat, who first asked what you wanted. If you wanted something small, he helped you and if you were interested in an instrument someone was ordered to pick you up at the gate. The man in the dust coat was the owner, as I learned later. I bought my first synthesizer (a Roland system 100 model 101) and my first polyphonic synthesizer there. Nowadays it's an Irish pub. I hope to be able to combine my old Roland with the MS-5.

(ha ha...didn't realize I posted my response in the wrong thread last night )

In all truth, I am a little put off by some of the stories about the company and how they do business. So I personally give them a pass unless something truly unmissable appears.

That said....some of their clones are an amazing and amazingly affordable way for folks to have access to reasonably-authentic vintage clones. I can't/won't fault anyone who enjoys their gear

Well I think I wrote something about Behringer in the other thread as well, so it's not that weird you answered that.

I'm not really agreeing with their businesspractices. They may be considered a kind of Robin Hoods by some, because they cloned effects made by Boss (Roland) (which is a big company) and mixers made by Mackie, and of cause a lot of analog synthesizers that are often no longer available, but to me they are probably more like robing hoods. Does that mean I won't buy their stuff, well no, because they make some stuff available that is not available as hardware, or just at a price I can't pay.
As said above, the MS-5 will be a nice addition. I probably would like to have something like their System 55, or their Roland 100m stuff (Thomann (a German music store I tend to buy my stuff from (bought several synthesizer-books and the Cherry Audio software from them)) offers that as a bundle). Would I buy their Model D (Minimoog clone)? Probably not, basicly because I allready own 2 or 3 Minimoog VSTs (Arturia, Cherry Audio and a free Cubase one that doesn't sound that good). One might argue I also have my modular bases covered with Arturia and Cherry Audio, but in a way with modular I would prefer the hands-on experience and the possibility to combine things with other hardware. Would I buy their Moog Grandmother clone? Defenitly not. I would love to have a Moog Matriarch, even though I don't like the colourfull frontpanel, but I wouldn't want a Behringer clone of that.
But well, I'm on a thight budget and I'm defenitly not able to buy the Analog Solutions stuff.

[Plasmatopia]

I should probably take the time to watch the video before commenting, but just wanted to say that in general if the patents have expired I don't have a problem with the circuits being used by others. I don't know the details, but I am assuming that at some point it's a case of "this is how you make an oscillator circuit" (or filter, or whatever). Most likely other manufacturers were aware of the Moog circuits (or some other manufacturer's synth circuits) and were using those as a jumping off point and adding a component here or there, implementing new features, or changing just enough to get by the patents.

From that standpoint I don't have a problem with buying their stuff (I've considered it) and given that I'm primarily a guitarist and bass player (and lately drumming more than anything else) I can't really justify being a purist and spending money on the real things when it comes to synths. It's just about having fun and making interesting sounds.

But of course I'm sure there's more to the story so I'll check out the video at some point.

[Rarebird]

I should probably take the time to watch the video before commenting, but just wanted to say that in general if the patents have expired I don't have a problem with the circuits being used by others. I don't know the details, but I am assuming that at some point it's a case of "this is how you make an oscillator circuit" (or filter, or whatever). Most likely other manufacturers were aware of the Moog circuits (or some other manufacturer's synth circuits) and were using those as a jumping off point and adding a component here or there, implementing new features, or changing just enough to get by the patents.

From that standpoint I don't have a problem with buying their stuff (I've considered it) and given that I'm primarily a guitarist and bass player (and lately drumming more than anything else) I can't really justify being a purist and spending money on the real things when it comes to synths. It's just about having fun and making interesting sounds.

But of course I'm sure there's more to the story so I'll check out the video at some point.

Well Behringer has made a Arturia Keystep clone, with the same looks and specifications, I think they only added a connection for a sustainpedal.
https://www.behringer.com/product.ht...lCode=0715-AAL
https://www.arturia.com/products/hyb...ystep/overview

[battema]

The Keystep is one of the big ones that makes me a little cautious about Behringer. I agree about expired patents, etc...this feels a lot less "making something vintage available for the masses" and more "let's undercut a manufacturer and their product" to me.

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2...off-seriously/

I vaguely recall that they quickly shuffled the design around to make it less obviously a knock off/rip off.

Anyway...yeah.

[Rarebird]

The Keystep is one of the big ones that makes me a little cautious about Behringer. I agree about expired patents, etc...this feels a lot less "making something vintage available for the masses" and more "let's undercut a manufacturer and their product" to me.

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2...off-seriously/

I vaguely recall that they quickly shuffled the design around to make it less obviously a knock off/rip off.

Anyway...yeah.

That's something I really have a problem with as well. I thought Behringer added a bus for a sustainpedal, but that isn't true, because the Keystep had that as well. Behringer really should be ashamed to produce a cheap knock-off, though judging from the YouTube clip I posted above, it seems to be their businesspractice for a long time.

Some of the links that are with the video on YouTube
https://reverb.com/news/the-true-sto...-gear-lawsuits
https://www.gearjunkies.com/2005/03/...by-rolandboss/
https://musictech.com/news/music/us-...eim-trademark/
And because Behringer doesn't like being critisised there is this:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/a-ma...-a-journalist/

[battema]

Yeah...things like claiming they had an "OK" from a manufacturer like Roland makes me cringe a little bit. Or the nasty reaction they seem to have to criticism.

It feels like a company that found a loophole and has turned it into a lucrative business model. Still...for those who have a dream piece of gear that Behringer may make available (especially one that isn't available anywhere other than the 2nd hand vintage market), I can't fault any eager buyers.

[Rarebird]

Yeah...things like claiming they had an "OK" from a manufacturer like Roland makes me cringe a little bit. Or the nasty reaction they seem to have to criticism.

It feels like a company that found a loophole and has turned it into a lucrative business model. Still...for those who have a dream piece of gear that Behringer may make available (especially one that isn't available anywhere other than the 2nd hand vintage market), I can't fault any eager buyers.

You're right. Somehow buying their stuff makes me feel a little bit dirty, but I can't really resist.

[Rarebird]

Another clip on Behringer

[Rarebird]

Behringer is very present on YouTube.
On one hand you have some people making critical videos on their businesspractices and on the other hand you have the videos announcing new products, or introducing new products, which are mostly not very critical. In the comments you get a lot of fans, who seem to consider Uli Behringer some kind of saint, because he makes synthesizers affordable for a lot of people.
They anounce a lot of stuff and it is always the question if and when it will hit the stores.
There are also a lot of instruction kind of videos, like those from Tim Shoebridge who did several videos on their modular Roland, Moog and ARP stuff.

[battema]

I think YT is very saturated with a lot of loaded content, mainly because the barrier to entry is nil. And much like with music, the cost to create a fairly decent-looking video is exceptionally low and so you have a ton of "me too!" videos, reaction videos to content videos, reactions to reactions to content videos, folks who are basically shills for big companies, plus some legitimately good/interesting content scattered throughout it all.

I like Tim Shoebridge a lot, I think his videos tend to be useful and I especially appreciate that he's not a terribly abrasive, in-your-face-hopped-up-on-Red-Bull influencer. He seems like the sort of bloke with whom I could sit and have a fairly engaging conversation on a variety of topics without ever needing to raise my voice or duck for cover

[Rarebird]

I think YT is very saturated with a lot of loaded content, mainly because the barrier to entry is nil. And much like with music, the cost to create a fairly decent-looking video is exceptionally low and so you have a ton of "me too!" videos, reaction videos to content videos, reactions to reactions to content videos, folks who are basically shills for big companies, plus some legitimately good/interesting content scattered throughout it all.

I like Tim Shoebridge a lot, I think his videos tend to be useful and I especially appreciate that he's not a terribly abrasive, in-your-face-hopped-up-on-Red-Bull influencer. He seems like the sort of bloke with whom I could sit and have a fairly engaging conversation on a variety of topics without ever needing to raise my voice or duck for cover

I like him too, he is more easy-going than someone like Dr. Mix, who sounds like he had a lot of coffee or speed.

[battema]

I know it isn't as straightforward as this, but I prefer his style of video where the gear/influencer focus is closer to 70/30 as opposed to a channel like Dr. Mix and many others where the ratio feels closer to 50/50 or even 30/70.

Anyway, that low barrier of entry to YT is what I think helps empower Behringer to maintain a positive profile both via paid and organic activity (I guess paid in this case could be advertising, but more likely it would be units sent to influencers most likely to reach a wide audience with a high probability of a positive review).

And again, even as someone who has a more critical view of the company, it's easy to see why they have such enthusiastic supporters. They DO make extremely affordable knockoffs. And in cases like Moog gear which is somewhat still in production I don't really think the audiences are competing: folks who can afford Moog boutique gear are unlikely to buy the Behringer alternates, and vice versa. For other companies that don't exist anymore, they're the only option. That same desire to have a piece of holy grail gear is what compelled me to purchase the Deckard's Dream from the Black Corporation.

So I do think the company act like dicks sometimes, and I think they sometimes reach a bit TOO much into the pockets of companies still trying to draw some revenue...but on the whole, they sell stuff that makes a lot of folks happy and able to use gear that would be out of reach otherwise.

[Rarebird]

I know it isn't as straightforward as this, but I prefer his style of video where the gear/influencer focus is closer to 70/30 as opposed to a channel like Dr. Mix and many others where the ratio feels closer to 50/50 or even 30/70.

Anyway, that low barrier of entry to YT is what I think helps empower Behringer to maintain a positive profile both via paid and organic activity (I guess paid in this case could be advertising, but more likely it would be units sent to influencers most likely to reach a wide audience with a high probability of a positive review).

And again, even as someone who has a more critical view of the company, it's easy to see why they have such enthusiastic supporters. They DO make extremely affordable knockoffs. And in cases like Moog gear which is somewhat still in production I don't really think the audiences are competing: folks who can afford Moog boutique gear are unlikely to buy the Behringer alternates, and vice versa. For other companies that don't exist anymore, they're the only option. That same desire to have a piece of holy grail gear is what compelled me to purchase the Deckard's Dream from the Black Corporation.

So I do think the company act like dicks sometimes, and I think they sometimes reach a bit TOO much into the pockets of companies still trying to draw some revenue...but on the whole, they sell stuff that makes a lot of folks happy and able to use gear that would be out of reach otherwise.

You are right. Though Moog doesn't just make the boutique stuff, like the MiniMoog, but also things that are relatively cheap, like the Grandmother (which seems to have kind of Behringer clone version in the form of the Model 15), the Matriarch (which might be on my wishlist) and some other things.
Behringer says they don't send free stuff to influencers, but I'm not sure I should believe them.
You also have 2 British guys who make a lot of videos about stuff anounced by Behringer. It seems they have anounced a CS80 clone as well. But well, they have anounced a lot of stuff that hasn't hit the market (yet).

If I've recorded the composition I'm currently working on, I might order the MS-5 and some other stuff, like a new keyboardstand and a seperate mixerstand. Though I still want some questions on the keyboardstand answered. That's the big problem with ordering from internet, you can't see the stuff in real and look how things function.

[dropforge]

Behringer says they don't send free stuff to influencers, but I'm not sure I should believe them.

Bologna. If Dr. Mix will rave about their new synth, they'll ship one to him posthaste.

I've heard Behringer will blacklist any reviewer who posts a critical — to us, balanced — review.

[battema]

Bologna. If Dr. Mix will rave about their new synth, they'll ship one to him posthaste.

I've heard Behringer will blacklist any reviewer who posts a critical — to us, balanced — review.

That's the part that I can't reconcile...if their products are exceptional values for the money then there really shouldn't be a need to attack criticism like that.

[Rarebird]

Bologna. If Dr. Mix will rave about their new synth, they'll ship one to him posthaste.

I've heard Behringer will blacklist any reviewer who posts a critical — to us, balanced — review.

I don't buy that we don't give stuff for reviews thing either. And I've read about the blacklist thing as well even going as far as making a kind of fake product.

[dropforge]

That's the part that I can't reconcile...if their products are exceptional values for the money then there really shouldn't be a need to attack criticism like that.

Word. Or why not process said criticism and direct that energy toward improvements in future models? When you're at the bottom, the only direction is up. The "how dare you" approach is impractical and their perceivably glacial output doesn't help.

I don't buy that we don't give stuff for reviews thing either. And I've read about the blacklist thing as well even going as far as making a kind of fake product.

Thanks for posting that. I've been in the shade and hadn't seen it. The comments defending UB's antics are weird. I don't find that Cork Sniffer biz funny at all. And then the guy has the nerve to throw his marketing dept. under the wheels. Stay classy, Uli.

[Rarebird]

Word. Or why not process said criticism and direct that energy toward improvements in future models? When you're at the bottom, the only direction is up. The "how dare you" approach is impractical and their perceivably glacial output doesn't help.




Thanks for posting that. I've been in the shade and hadn't seen it. The comments defending UB's antics are weird. I don't find that Cork Sniffer biz funny at all. And then the guy has the nerve to throw his marketing dept. under the wheels. Stay classy, Uli.

Well, Behringer seems to have some fanatic defenders that can't accept a bit of critisism on their hero.

[battema]

Well, Behringer seems to have some fanatic defenders that can't accept a bit of critisism on their hero.

Fun fact: you can swap "Behringer" with "Yes" or one of several other prog sacred cows and it still holds true

[Rarebird]

Fun fact: you can swap "Behringer" with "Yes" or one of several other prog sacred cows and it still holds true

Yes, but that's a music group and music groups really have their share of fanatic fans.
I once met a guy who stated that if his favorite group would record Mary had a little lamb he still would buy it.

But well Behringer is just another synth factory.

On the other hand Apple also has it's fanatic fans, a company like Microsoft doesn't have.
People brag about Apple. No-one brags about having a Windows computer.

And I have to say Behringer is no Apple.

[dropforge]

Fun fact: you can swap "Behringer" with "Yes" or one of several other prog sacred cows and it still holds true

Marillion

And I have to say Behringer is no Apple.

Heck, Behringer is no Kawai!*


*Once my coffeemaker's sorted out, maybe I'll think differently.

[Plasmatopia]

Seems like any company will have it's sycophants. I have a friend who brags about how Android phones are better. The important thing is to recognize the fanaticism when it crops up.