I believe it is fully recorded. How else would they be making the music available by January 1?Originally Posted by Nashorn
I believe it is fully recorded. How else would they be making the music available by January 1?
Chad
I got nice little video of a couple of minutes from Boulders on Hills, with Ray singing in close up.
Sounds great.
Neil
"Just know that even if we listen to the same bands, I listen to them BETTER than you" - Gene Meyer
Always liked this band so I pledged a couple weeks ago. I'm a physical product guy so went with the CD's. Don't really care about it being signed, but whatever.
They have a ways to go with only a few weeks left to hit their goal. We shall see...
"Who would have thought a whale would be so heavy?" - Moe Sizlak
I hate to be pessimistic but pledges seem to be moving really slowly now that most of the band's Facebook followers have pledged.
I can't see them making it at this rate. What's frustrating is that they don't seem to be making much promotion outside of Facebook, which is obviously not enough to increase awareness. I hope that they calculated their target based solid estimations. I would really hate to see this go south.
Not just a Genesis fanboy.
Yeah, I hate to say it but this is not a well thought out Kickstarter campaign. To hit their target they'd need 750 people to back at the $60 tier, or twice that at the download tier, which probably seems achievable on paper. But when you factor in the limited time window and the need to ensure every potential backer is even aware of the campaign, you're looking at only a very small percentage of people who may consider backing being aware of it and financially able to do so within the short span available (speaking for myself, this is the time of year where I have the least disposable income for various reasons, so I'm not personally able to back it right now even at the download level).
Plus, the kickstarter doesn't really offer many compelling reasons to back at this stage. The implication is the albums are coming out regardless, so if you don't care about signed copies or having the music at the earliest possible date then you might be tempted to say "ah, I'll pick them up when they're actually out". What they could have done was set a lower goal, even if it's not all the money they actually need. That means that if they hit that goal, the money is there. They can then open a "late pledge" option which vastly extends the window in which they can bring in new backers (essentially a pre-order page), gives them the chance to upsell other merch (t-shirts feels like a no brainer), etc. I also think an exclusive non-album track would have been a great way to incentivise people to back, even if it's just a cover or an old demo or whatever.
I seriously hope they manage to get it over the line. They absolutely deserve to. But I have hard time imagining that there's another 400 Echolyn fans out there who have the means and desire to back the project in the next 20 days but for some reason haven't already done so.
I'm gunshy on Kickstarter right now. I lost $350 on a campaign that more than doubled the goal and the company still failed.
JG
"MARKLAR!"
For me, my main reason for backing (at the $30 level), is that the album has taken so long as it is, and waiting until March 1st, as opposed to getting it on January 1st, is yet another two months that I don't want to wait. Simple as that. If there wasn't a two month gap, I likely wouldn't pledge. And this is my first time ever backing a kickstarter campaign.
Despite how prevalent it has become, I've never fully warmed to the concept of bands needing money from fans to make albums; mostly because with today's current technology so many people have made, to me, amazing sounding albums for very little money, compared to the old days. And a lot of recording studios/music teachers, etc. have realized that they can't charge the money they once did. A very good bass player friend of mine, said that he used to charge $80 an hour to teach. Now, it is $45 an hour.
Neil
"Just know that even if we listen to the same bands, I listen to them BETTER than you" - Gene Meyer
I didn't understand that was clearly implied, even if the kickstarter fails...
But I agree with you guys this doesn't look like a well thought out campaign unless they know something we don't. They probably based their calculations on the number of albums they usually sell but this implies a marketing push with reviews and interviews that is not happening at the moment. I can't see how they plan to reach beyond their Facebook followers unless they kick things up a notch. They usually have good support from the prog reviewers and media, if they could just make them aware.
Not just a Genesis fanboy.
Probably more precise to say it is assumed (by people here). The band hasn't made any statement about what would happen if the campaign fails, unless I have missed it.
This is the math I'm concerned about. There are only 700 CDs available. So they have to both sell out AND sell a bunch of downloads. That's a tall ask.
We thought about the KS campaign quite a bit and wanted to keep it simple and on point, i.e. not have too many options and just get the amount needed. We are offering 701 signed CDs at $60. We figuered if we sold that out we'd make $42060.00. Add that with 299 digital download at $30 each ($8970.00) and you get more than our wish of $45000.00 to cover our expenses.
In our minds and hearts we hopped to get 1000 people to support us. Based on our history of selling music this seemed very attainable. We are currently at 320 supporters with a total of $20,828.00 as of this post.
I must admit I am worried that we won't attain our goal despite the simple task of selling 701 CD and 299 digital downloads.
Hope that let's you see our point of view on our expectations.
With Kickstarter: if we do not reach our goal no exchange of money or product happens. The campaign is over and is a wash. Noe one loses, no one gains.
So what happens with the release of our albums? We have a few choices, raise the money another way, raise less money and pay from our own pockets, or not release it at all due to not being able to fund the project.
Thanks for the insight, Brett. Fingers crossed that some way or other these albums see the light of day.
<sig out of order>
Le Frog, great point! Let me expound...
None of us has the time, given our commitments to our families and professional/personal lives, to organize interviews, promotions, and other standard marketing tactics. I must admit, we wish we could, but none of us are in the "business" of playing in a band anymore. We are in the business of many other things...and the band is a wonderful means to make music with old friends. It is a pure joy. This has been the case since our 2000 release of Cowboy Poems Free. The difference between us creating and releasing music between 2000 and 2015 as a fully funded and self-paying endeavor, is that since our last release in 2015 the paradigm of how we all listen to music has changed. And with this new model, despite our music reaching far more people, the monetary income is far, far less and therefore not self-supporting anymore.
We count ourselves lucky that the time we spent, full throttle, as a very real working band between 1989 and 1995, allowed us to continue making music for 20 years and share it – despite the band not being our full-time job anymore. But with Streaming and new cultural views on music, it's value, how it is made, and how it is shared... well, we are not able to afford the cost of recording, mixing, mastering, manufacturing, and shipping/sharing our songs. Hence the Kick Starter idea.
We assumed (based on previous sales) that we'd be able to get 1000 supporters via our Facebook page. We still hope to be able to do this. But obviously this may not happen given the nature of Facebook, music listening, and our available time to promote our music. We shall see my friend. Wish us luck.
Dear Brett,
I'm truly humbled that you took some time to answer me personnally. I hope my post didn't come across as too critical, as it was written out of genuine concern that one of my favorite bands might not be able to make their art available to the public and earn a legitimate income from it. I am fully aware that you do not have time to go through the whole promo circus. Echolyn always had the image of a quality band in the prog world and always had great reviews from all the prog reviewers out there. What I find frustrating is that most of those guys have blogs and websites and would certainly be more than willing to support you and spread the word if only they were aware of your campaign. I don't have many connections in those circles myself but I'll see if I can at least share the KS campaign to some FB friends with more relations than I have.
Fingers crossed, there are still people out there who know the value of what you have created all those years.
All the best,
Sylvain
Not just a Genesis fanboy.
Hi Neil, I love that we all (musicians and non-musicians) can make music in our bedrooms, basements, and garages. You're right that because of this many studios, engineers, producers, etc, have had to lower their prices to accommodate.
With that said, based on your post, you have no idea about audio recording, the price of pre-amps, compressors, routing, cables, DAW, monitoring systems, speakers, room acoustics, microphones, and on and on. Yes, you can create drum grooves, gtr and bass parts, midi keyboards, all on a laptop while traveling on a plane. You can record vocals on a $50 USB microphone and fix all the out of tune singing in 30 min for an entire song. I think that is all great. I wish I what we have now when I was just learning how to record.... because I would have learned much faster what works and doesn't. I would have known what sounds ok and what sounds amazing.
When I record in my home, to avoid studio fees and keep costs down, I still use costly microphones, pre amps, and a hundred other costly things to make the recordings and performances the best they can be. These things, again, cost a lot of money because they sound beautiful. They sound like professional, timeless music. They don't sound like the sea of mediocrity that is overwhelmingly available and apparent today. Investing in recording gear, learning how to use it, and understanding how instruments sound and are played, let alone song craft takes time. That is what I want when I make the leap of writing a song to actually recording it.
I want a great engineer that understand phase relationships and what each mic can and cannot do. Recording drums or basic live tracks requires a 1000 things to go right. This costs money. When we recorded The End Is Beautiful we tracked the songs live in a studio. It took 2.5 days to record the basic tracks. That cost us $5000 for the studio and the amazing engineer. We paid for this because Mei (the preceding album) sold enough copies to pay for those 2.5 days and the cost of all overdubs at my studio. I was able to buy some great gear to finish the recording and mix it myself, Chris and I drove to Boston to have a proper Mastering Engineer master The End is Beautiful. That cost us $2000. We paid for all the pressings of the album. I think the initial pressing was for 2500 copies. We made enough from hard copy sales to press again and again.
I only mention this because I want to show you the tip of an iceberg that you really have no understanding. Are you a professional audio engineer? I teach classes on this subject at collegiate level to students that have no idea about recording, sound design, or basic audio concepts.
The invention of streaming music has greatly changed the way songwriters make music and make money for their songs. No more is the model, "I want a song or an alum. Let me buy the song or album and have that money go to the songwriter/publisher." The Model now is, "Let me have all the songs that ever existed at my fingertips for chump change, and let the people that wrote and paid for those songs get paid 0.005 cents to do so." This is why we are asking for help to simply fund the last steps of our process to share our songs, i.e., the mixing mastering and manufacturing. You helps us, we give you our music, that you paid for fairly, before anyone else gets it and certainly well before any of these songs will be available on streaming services.
Forgive the long post. As stated, what I have mentioned is only the tip of an iceberg that you clearly have no idea about in regards to recording music for a band like mine and at the level we all strive for.
BWK
Agreed!!
You will not be charged if we cannot make our goal. This is the model we are employing at Kick Starter.
Yes, we recorded the album already and I have mixed the music based on my production of our arrangements and performances. The time to do all this given freely by my friends that run Catapult Sound. With that said, regarding the tracking, We (the band) will pay the studio for our time spent. It's the right thing to do. Also, despite me laying out the mixes for the songs I felt for too close to this material to have an objective ear anymore. I asked Glenn Rosenstein if he could help and he gladly offered to do so based on the quality of the material and recordings. He and I sat together - he at his studio in Nashville, me at mine, while he properly mixed the songs to the level we as a band were hoping and he expected. He used software called Session Wire so that I could listen and work with him, in real time, as he mixed each song. We did this when we could from March to October of this year. The band is paying him for his experience and talent. To finalize the mixes Chris, Ray and I will fly to Nashville to Glenn's Skylight Studio, and make the last adjustments in person. Glenn and I will then Master all 90 minutes of music. All this will happen between November 15 thru 19th. The funds will also pay for the first 1000 copies of the albums on CD x 2.
Hope that answers any questions.
I hope it gets funded! I'm going to listen to some of your albums today since I haven't heard them before, and I'll probably back the kickstarter if I like what I hear. For getting the word out, I'd also recommend going to this post on Prog Archives, or post about it on the prog rock subreddit.
Hey Brett. Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, and I certainly meant no disrespect regarding your reasons for doing things the way that you do them. That being said, though not being a long time audio engineer like yourself, I actually DO know something about how much these things cost, because I am a bassist in multiple projects and have recorded two albums and am actually in the process of recording one for my newest project now. And I have a full recording set-up in my basement too, including 10 drum mics alone and I certainly did not go the cheap bargain route, when buying them. The engineer we are using is a long-time professional, certainly no slouch (having won an award and being well regarded on the Toronto scene...and a guitarist like yourself), and will get very good results.
I do fully agree with you that there is a lot of drek out there and there is no denying that your albums sound amazing and the money is heard in the recording. And I do understand why you would want to maintain the highest level of quality possible. I wish you and the band all the best in hitting that target and releasing the album exactly as you want it to sound like. I wasn't there in the 90s, but I've been enjoying your music since Mei, so thanks for all the great albums.
Neil
Last edited by boilk; 11-06-2024 at 05:36 PM.
"Just know that even if we listen to the same bands, I listen to them BETTER than you" - Gene Meyer
Wow, what a great site we are on where this kind of interaction can happen. We are all rooting for you, Brett.
We absolutely are rooting for you.
Thanks for the music, Brett.
FWIW:
I see some premium tiers have been added, which could help. I'd suggest doing a campaign update to make sure folks are aware, as it is possible that there are existing backers who will bump up to a premium tier.
I think 700 CDs isn't an unreasonable amount to expect. I think a preorder via Bandcamp or something similar could help meet the numbers in question. Kickstarter is tricky because it's an investment rather than a true preorder. Some of us have backed Kickstarters that went very wrong and failed to deliver the promised goods after succeeding*. To be clear, I backed yours because I'm confident that you WILL deliver. But I can see where others might be cautious.
IF it falls through (and I hope it doesn't), I would suggest looking into Indiegogo which allows for flexible goals as well as a longer-running campaign. Or a Bandcamp preorder. Or both!
Best of luck with the campaign
- J
* As a practical example, I just lost $300 on a Kickstarter. The campaign in question raised more than 3x its goal, AND the company also ran an equally-successful campaign on Indiegogo in parallel....but they failed to calculate their true manufacturing costs, went into bankruptcy and are now in liquidation. So even campaigns that work out WILDLY well can go pear-shaped, sadly.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
https://battema.bandcamp.com/
Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
I would go for a Tier 2, but what stops me is the payment option. Seems the only option is the credit card and I am very hesitant to post such an information on the internet. Is there any other option there?
"Confusion Will Be My Epitaph"
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