Technical Wizardry vs. Musicianship and Musicality

[Dana5140]

Of late, I have been looking at some youtube clips that involve musicians who are clearly technically gifted at their instruments. For example, on drums you have El Estepario Siberiano (Jorge Garrido):

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9hUxQo8otl0

On Bass, you have the wonderful Charles Berthoud (among others, such as Mohini Dey):



On guitar, there are many, but perhaps Martin Patrzalak will do:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/s5pQqoR7-0U

So, the question is this: these guys are making livings from posting their clips of their virtuosity. But once you've seen them do it, is it worth watching over time? They are usually not playing in bands, just demonstrating their abilities and after a while I am worn down by it. I would rather see the creativity, on bass, of someone like Jack Casady or the late Phil Lesh, not just flash over flash over flash. Anyone feel the same way?

[Sputnik]

I agree with you to an extent. I have seen at least a few videos from most of these hot shot bass players (I don't really watch any drum videos), and I don't really need to follow them or watch every video they put out. I get the idea from one or two. For bass and drums, it's more interesting to me to hear those players in the context of a band. Mohini Dey plays with a number of people, and I think she does a fine job in the support role as well as adding some flash. I don't love all the musical styles she's involved in, but I get a better total sense of her as a player when she's with a group.

So, yeah, the solo videos get a little exhausting, but I don't think that translates to these players being non-musical or not creative. It's just that to me, an instrument like bass doesn't really carry the entire musical load over the long haul. Having a solo bass track like these videos on a group album would be cool, but if it's just bass solo after bass solo, it gets boring no matter how much "wizardry" is involved. Endless Jack Cassidy or Phil Lesh solo videos would probably bore me even more quickly because they lack the eye-popping elements. I respect them as players in the context of the groups and music they make, but they would have even less capacity to hold my attention in a pure solo situation. This leads me to believe that players like Berthoud are creative and musical in their own way. I just don't like endless solo performances for bass and would rather hear bass players in the context of a group.

For guitar, it can be different, and I think Martin Patrzalak is doing something that sustains itself musically. I could easily see him releasing and album of solo material in this style, though I'd hope he'd mix up the moods a bit so that there's some variety on the album. I think Martin has astonishing and singular technical skills and is highly musical. I see no "trade off" with what he's doing. If you're talking about people doing nothing but shred guitar solos, I'd feel differently, but I think with the right approach, guitar can legitimately sustain itself in a solo performance over the long haul.

Bill

[progmatist]

Yngwie Malmsteen is among the most technically advanced guitar players ever to walk planet Earth. But he plays the same solo in every song. Recycling the same blazing fast scale and arpeggio runs. He's a great technician, but not much of a musician.

[GuitarGeek]

The neat thing about music (and actually, most artforms) is you don't have to be a "virtuoso" to get something across. If you have a clear idea of what you want to do, that's all you really need. There's lots of ambient music that consists of someone playing a three or four note phrase over and over, slowly, while twiddling the knobs on their synthesizer. Hell, side one of Brian Eno's Discreet Music is just a single sequence being played again and again, fed through a lag accumulator. And then there's all the noise music, much of which is just wall of white noise, with no dynamics or anything.

It really doesn't matter how good a musician you are, it's what you do with the abilities you do have.

[GuitarGeek]

Yngwie Malmsteen is among the most technically advanced guitar players ever to walk planet Earth. But he plays the same solo in every song. Recycling the same blazing fast scale and arpeggio runs. He's a great technician, but not much of a musician.

Not only that, but his songs suck out loud! I remember him bragging in Guitar Player once about how he wrote everything on his records. This was around the time he released that live album that was recorded in Leningrad, just after the Iron Curtain fell, I believe. He's talking about on how on his last studio record at the time, "the singer" (meaning Joe Lynn Turner) came up with some vocal melodies, so "I was generous and gave him full cowriting credit", but then added "But I wrote every damn thing on all my other records". And he says like he's written Bohemian Rhapsody or Strawberry Fields Forever or Green Grass And High Tides, you know something that's worth bragging about. Instead he's talking about crap like You Don't Remember (I'll Never Forget) and I'll See The Light Tonight (the most impressive thing about the latter is that the video was shot at some amusement park's "magic" stage show set, and all the "cool stuff" you see in it is lifted straight out of the show). Yeah, whatever, Yngwie, you're lucky we don't deport you back to Sweden for "unleashing the fury".

[Hobo Chang Ba]

I don't watch random youtube vids of any solo musician just playing. That said, if these people made an album I might be interested in listening to it, depending on what they are doing on it for an album duration.

I agree with you to an extent. I have seen at least a few videos from most of these hot shot bass players (I don't really watch any drum videos), and I don't really need to follow them or watch every video they put out. I get the idea from one or two. For bass and drums, it's more interesting to me to hear those players in the context of a band. Mohini Dey plays with a number of people, and I think she does a fine job in the support role as well as adding some flash. I don't love all the musical styles she's involved in, but I get a better total sense of her as a player when she's with a group.

So, yeah, the solo videos get a little exhausting, but I don't think that translates to these players being non-musical or not creative. It's just that to me, an instrument like bass doesn't really carry the entire musical load over the long haul. Having a solo bass track like these videos on a group album would be cool, but if it's just bass solo after bass solo, it gets boring no matter how much "wizardry" is involved. Endless Jack Cassidy or Phil Lesh solo videos would probably bore me even more quickly because they lack the eye-popping elements. I respect them as players in the context of the groups and music they make, but they would have even less capacity to hold my attention in a pure solo situation. This leads me to believe that players like Berthoud are creative and musical in their own way. I just don't like endless solo performances for bass and would rather hear bass players in the context of a group.

For guitar, it can be different, and I think Martin Patrzalak is doing something that sustains itself musically. I could easily see him releasing and album of solo material in this style, though I'd hope he'd mix up the moods a bit so that there's some variety on the album. I think Martin has astonishing and singular technical skills and is highly musical. I see no "trade off" with what he's doing. If you're talking about people doing nothing but shred guitar solos, I'd feel differently, but I think with the right approach, guitar can legitimately sustain itself in a solo performance over the long haul.

Bill

Interestingly, currently I would be more interested in solo bass recordings. Unless the guitar is doing something interesting with textures or timbres or excessive looping/electronics and the like I find solo guitar records get boring pretty fast (to my ears, of course). I find bass guitar can cover that ground more often...at least in theory. Solo bass recordings are pretty rare comparatively.


I will say though that solo instrumental music usually isn't my cup of tea (unless its percussion). But I am trying to listen to more in that field if I find a player or concept that I find interesting.

[Mascodagama]

Yngwie Malmsteen is among the most technically advanced guitar players ever to walk planet Earth. But he plays the same solo in every song. Recycling the same blazing fast scale and arpeggio runs. He's a great technician, but not much of a musician.

Gimme a man who knows how to play slowly, simply and with feeling over Yngwie any day of the year.

[Mascodagama]

That isn’t to say there aren’t players who are technical monsters but can also play with taste and feeling. Julian Lage would be an example on guitar.

[progmatist]

^^ As would Steve Morse.