Yes Sued for Copyright Infringement

[Mr.Krautman]

Just input the two songs into a A.I app, it will decide on the question definitively and unequivocally.
Case settled.

[Piskie]

Been relistening to the album today- which I do like. The bit of tune is important to the song- though there is a lot more going on. We shall she what happens!

[smcfee]

Both tunes are frankly a wee bit influenced by the Blade Runner End Titles. Progression is a little different but I want Vangelis' estate to sue Riz Story for whatever money he gets out of Steve Howe.

[Frumious B]

So folks are saying that the “Dare To Know” part originates from Howe’s noodling at 4:58 in this demo version of “The Ancient” released on the Rhino TFTO remaster: https://youtu.be/zHZE7vo8eAM?si=lrlm_0nQSohIBQ9g

[ronmac]

This is the song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUHFHyn6TAo

Dare to Know matches at 3:50.
https://youtu.be/hhzKdB6ftsc?si=vUufziSFMp22ZCIt&t=226

Is it just that little snippet in "Dare to Know"? I can't imagine there's aren't dozens of songs that are similar to that passage.

[ronmac]

So folks are saying that the “Dare To Know” part originates from Howe’s noodling at 4:58 in this demo version of “The Ancient” released on the Rhino TFTO remaster: https://youtu.be/zHZE7vo8eAM?si=lrlm_0nQSohIBQ9g

I agree. It's very similar, IMO

[arturs]

Is it just that little snippet in "Dare to Know"? I can't imagine there's aren't dozens of songs that are similar to that passage.

Yeah... I guess so... I had incorrectly assumed the suit was about the main Dare to Know theme based on several descriptions of the descending scale. But this is f'ing ridiculous. Either this Riz guy has a good friend with a law degree who was willing to do this case for free, or some lawyer is taking him to the cleaners.

One additional weakness of this case is Riz's need to throw Davison under the bus to get to Howe. Usually for these suits to work, I understand you have to clearly demonstrate that the plagiarizer would have known about the song. Riz seems to have little if any evidence that Howe knew about it, but Davison probably did. So he concocts this entire Howe & Davison conspiracy story from thin air it seems, and about how Davison purposely kept his name off the piece to avoid detection. Honestly, who would do that?? who would even think of doing that?

My bet is that this suit gets dismissed.

[Sputnik]

So folks are saying that the “Dare To Know” part originates from Howe’s noodling at 4:58 in this demo version of “The Ancient” released on the Rhino TFTO remaster: https://youtu.be/zHZE7vo8eAM?si=lrlm_0nQSohIBQ9g

LOL! Not even close. If this is Howe's defense, he's on very shaky ground, imo.

[Sputnik]

Yeah... I guess so... I had incorrectly assumed the suit was about the main Dare to Know theme based on several descriptions of the descending scale. But this is f'ing ridiculous. Either this Riz guy has a good friend with a law degree who was willing to do this case for free, or some lawyer is taking him to the cleaners.

Lawyers take cases like this on contingency all the time. One hit will pay for all the time spent on the misses. Story really has no other option unless he wants to represent himself, but I don't think anyone is "taking him to the cleaners," at least not any more so than any case like this where the lawyer gets a percentage of the verdict or settlement.

One additional weakness of this case is Riz's need to throw Davison under the bus to get to Howe. Usually for these suits to work, I understand you have to clearly demonstrate that the plagiarizer would have known about the song. Riz seems to have little if any evidence that Howe knew about it, but Davison probably did. So he concocts this entire Howe & Davison conspiracy story from thin air it seems, and about how Davison purposely kept his name off the piece to avoid detection. Honestly, who would do that?? who would even think of doing that?

You raise a critical point. Davidson almost has to be the bridge between Howe and Story. It's completely unclear what Davidson might have had access to that he could have passed to Howe for him to borrow, steal, or simply be "accidentally influenced by" Story's composition. That will be up to Story to prove and may be very important in the case. I'd agree that Story's tale of a conspiracy between Howe and Davidson is unlikely, but that doesn't mean that Howe wasn't exposed to this idea through Davidson in some way.

My bet is that this suit gets dismissed.

Well, that's a bet, but I'm betting the opposite. I think there's enough here to pursue it, but I think that rational heads will prevail, and a settlement will be reached. As incensed as Yes's spokespeople are about this, the time and cost of fighting stuff like this is actually pretty high for the defense, not to mention the uncertainty of what a jury might find as damages. Unless there's a technically of some sort, I don't see this being dismissed outright.

Bill

[Mister Triscuits]

That melodic figuration (a four-note stepwise descending phrase followed by its repetition a step below) is utilized in other places as well, including "Black Magic Woman" and "What Is Life" (the latter song owing more than a bit to Spencer Davis Group's "Keep On Runnin'", by the way).

I’ve finally gotten around to actually checking out the “melody” in question, and you’re right, it’s ridiculously generic. It’s nothing but a descending tetrachord, followed by another a step lower, and another a step lower again. It’s more like a scale exercise than a melody…and I seem to remember saying exactly that about some of Howe’s themes when The Quest first came out. Riz is fulla beanz.

[Facelift]

Good luck with the $Millions of dollars that Dare To Know must have generated
I mean one obscure song sounds like an even more obscure one, seems ridiculous to me.

That’s the aspect that, IMO, gives it a presumption of merit. Take a flier on a specious claim to get a piece of something huge? Sure, that happens. But take the time and money to sue over this? These are the lawsuits that get filed as a matter principle.

[Sean]

I echo the thoughts that this is so simple it probably popped up in many compositions over the years.

[Richardr]

Sometimes, it's not about the money as much as it is about protecting one's art. He might be trying to force a settlement, too.

And also getting one's name better known as a songwriter to get more business.

[Splicer]

There's a similarity between the two snippets I've heard but it might just be something that stuck in someone's head after hearing it once. I don't know.

Also, I didn't need to be suddenly exposed to someone's grief in a YouTube clip.

[ronmac]

There's a similarity between the two snippets I've heard but it might just be something that stuck in someone's head after hearing it once. I don't know.

Also, I didn't need to be suddenly exposed to someone's grief in a YouTube clip.

You realize it's a movie clip, right?

[smcfee]

You realize it's a movie clip, right?

Paul Sorvino... has been in a million things but I remember him from Law & Order reruns.

[profusion]

The two pieces sound tenuously related, at best. Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee this morning for my brain to be fully activated.

Frankly, it's all kind of bland. If I were "Riz", I'm not sure I'd want to promote this as an example of my brilliance, if that was the point behind this suit.

[the winter tree]

I guess the guy won't be producing them anytime soon;-)

[Splicer]

You realize it's a movie clip, right?

I think Paul Sorvino and the look of a dramatic film gave it away.

[Mascodagama]

I think building a lawsuit out of this is ridiculous. That theme in Dare to Know is a prime offender when it comes to Howe's penchant for writing utterly simplistic themes and repeating them too many times. It's a thoroughly banal 4-note snippet repeated in predictable downward steps. Identical or similar themes exist everywhere. A child sitting down at a piano could come up with it. I would be embarassed to claim to have "invented" it.

Very under-rated reply.

[dpt3]

Maybe Howe will be inspired in the future to write more interesting music to avoid lawsuits!

[bondegezou]

True, but thinking about it a bit more, what does he really have to lose? How many people had heard the name "Riz Story" before this? Now he's all over the news, and not just among Yes fans. That can't be a bad thing, especially if he wins. Odd as it may seem, this may be the best opportunity this guy will ever get to cash in on, or elevate, his music career.

His last album was heavily promoted as having Jon Davison guesting on it. I'm guessing Davison isn't going to guest again. Story has thus lost that opportunity to cash in, and I suspect that will cost him more in the long run.

[bondegezou]

The acoustic intro to Black Star sounds absolutely nothing like Reunion to me.

At minimum, Howe would need to have something that showed he created the idea before 2014 when A Winter Rose was released, or before the date that Story can document that he submitted the idea to the film. That's 10+ years ago. If Howe has such proof, which I doubt he does, then I assume it would be up to Story to submit proof of having composed it earlier. More likely, if Howe has anything at all, it will be after 2014, and the case will rest mostly on the similarity of the two pieces. When exactly story wrote the piece is pretty small potatoes compared to that 2014 date which clearly marks him as the writer.

I did. I think that kind of language is pretty typical in lawsuits. I've certainly seen my share. The thing that stuck out to me in the documents was the assessment of the musicologist. The two pieces are almost identical.

I don't know what to say. It could be a coincidence, but that just seems extremely unlikely given how similar the two pieces are. Story is using some puffery to try to get the most he can. That's usually how negotiations start, but it's unlikely that's where it will wind up.

The musicologist's assessment is overly generous (which is presumably why he was employed). See this debunking video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGyfrs7CQYU

The report claims there are 10 notes in "Reunion" that match a sequence with one additional note in "Dare to Know". The pieces are in different keys, so you have to transpose them to match. That means the first note will always match! So we're down to 9 notes out of 10 matching. But the musicologist ignores 3 notes where there is a natural/flat distinction between the two pieces. So, it's only 6 notes out of 10 actually matching, I believe. So, some similarity, but not "almost identical".

[bondegezou]

Well, that's a bet, but I'm betting the opposite. I think there's enough here to pursue it, but I think that rational heads will prevail, and a settlement will be reached. As incensed as Yes's spokespeople are about this, the time and cost of fighting stuff like this is actually pretty high for the defense, not to mention the uncertainty of what a jury might find as damages. Unless there's a technically of some sort, I don't see this being dismissed outright.

Story is suing Howe, Yes and Sony. Sony has deeper pockets than Howe, Yes or Story and might have different feelings about such cases. I don't know whether that makes a settlement more or less likely, but I do presume Sony have an experienced team to handle cases like this. Reading the legal submission, it is apparent Story does not have an experienced team!

[bondegezou]

Story is an eccentric, prone to wild claims. He has history of this. This post on Reddit offered some examples: https://www.reddit.com/r/yesband/com...mment/lxncyom/ !