Yes-Time to get Jon Anderson & Rick Wakeman back in the group

[NogbadTheBad]

You've got to love Frum, he's only got one message and he's on message.

[Adrian]

Magnification and The Ladder were released on a failed label that was in its death throes where Frontiers seems to be more fiscally sound and responsible.

Yeah, but Magnification and The Ladder had Jon Anderson, which according to you is supposed to equal sales gold. You can't have it both ways.

They have a pretty simple formula that works well for them. They scoop up washed up, but well established dinosaur acts on the cheap when their stock is bottomed out, get them to record music that sounds (at least on the surface) like it's from their heyday and then market to whatever slice of aging fans still cares to hear the new stuff that conjures up memories of the old stuff.

Which is why the new albums move back catalog. Frontiers gets that remaining 10% to 15% of peak sales Ian Anderson talked about, and then the average fan says, "Oh, yeah, I remember them. I really need to fill out my Yes collection."

[Patelena396]

In short: yes.

In long: I like Bill's answer. I've changed, the world's changed, Yes has changed. So it's not the same experience, but, for me, the band still put on a great show. I've not seen them yet with Davison, but the shows with David I saw were very good (I think I was lucky that I saw him when his voice was holding up well). Indeed, the Cambridge show I saw in 2011 was better, I'd say, than the Union show I saw 20 years earlier. I also very much enjoyed the recent Jon Anderson solo show and the Steve Howe Trio show I've seen.

But you're not me. If you don't enjoy Yes live as much, fair enough. The band have clearly changed. That's not going to work for everyone. I have no argument with anyone not liking the current Yes, or any band. But if people want to discuss more objective things (e.g., how risky are the set lists), then there is a debate to be had and an evidence base of relevance.

Henry

Henry, it's true, you are not me. Opinions differ. That said, it is not a case of me "not liking the current YES". I will always be interested in anything that the members of YES do. I have seen the band with Davison and was entertained. I went to Yestival in NJ and had fun. I saw the band with David and was entertained both times. That said, up until a few years ago and going back to the late 70s, I was excited to see Yes EVERY time that they toured. Maybe part of that enthusiasm had to do with them touring new material in many cases, but overall, it just doesn't feel the same to me. As I've said, even with the addition of FFH material to the set lists, I just havent jumped on ticketmaster to purchase tickets every time a Yes tour is announced. Perhaps some of the lack of excitement around the FFH material was affected a bit by the fact that when they got around to performing a significant amount of material from the album, it wasn't with the singer from the album. I will admit to not being crazy about how the band handled the whole Benoit David thing, regardless of the reason, but seeing Davison have to cover Anderson AND David material seemed a bit too much like parody to me. I understood it, but it still seemed a bit sad and I wasn't as excited to hear the new material live. You mention that you haven't seen the band with Davison. I have and perhaps part of it for me is that as much as I understood the Anderson situation and was more than willing to support the Beniot David led band, the situation with Davison just doesn't feel as natural to me. The lack of a real band feel also doesn't help in encouraging me to continue to see this band on every tour as I have for many years in the past.

That said, I welcome a studio album from the current lineup as perhaps that will help to solidify the band feel a bit more for me. Currently though, I am finding it hard to not see Yes as a band that has reached the point of going through the motions to a large extent. That's fine and is absolutely their right to do so. As a longtime fan though, I have to be honest and admit that though I am still interested in seeing them live from time to time, I feel that their touring now has more to do with their retirement than actually proving something. Before anyone jumps on me to say that they don't have to prove anything at this point, I agree. They don't, but for me, there is something lacking at a Yes concert these days that was still in place not so long ago. No need for anyone to get defensive about the band as this is my opinion, but after so many years, it is odd to feel complacent about a Yes tour. Also, my situation differs from Adm.Kirk as I still love going to concerts. I agree that people can be rude and all that. In fact, yes has some of the worst most inconsiderate fans on the planet. (Don't get me started on the rude jackasses near me at Yestival who booed and yelled obscenities at The Musical Box through most of their set). That said, I miss the enthusiasm that I used to feel for a Yes concert.

[Adrian]

You've got to love Frum, he's only got one message and he's on message.

You're not kidding. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[ThomasKDye]

You've got to love Frum, he's only got one message and he's on message.

Frum: The facts are that with Jon Anderson in the band, the moon tended to explode less often.
Henry: Um, I haven't noticed the moon EVER exploding...
Frum: That may be, but the reality is that when Jon Anderson left the band, the fabric of time started warping constantly, causing massive destruction...

[Brian Griffin]

Yes-Time to FORget Jon Anderson & Rick Wakeman back in the group

BG

[Patelena396]

I personally think both The Ladder and Magnification are still fresher and more lively sounding albums than Fly From Here. While the amount of new material played in a given year wasn't huge except for The Ladder tour, I think the setlists from 97-04 were more diverse, interesting and covered a wider range of Yes' catalog than has been covered from 08-13.

I'm not sure that I want to jump into this part of the discussion, but to be honest, I liked all three of these albums. That said, the word "fresher" is open to debate and having Anderson in the band doesn't guarantee fresh sounding music in any way. I am a big fan of Jon, but he is the guy who led the charge on Union which to these ears is the worst, most inconsistent Yes album that there is. That said, it is kind of a useless debate as the Anderson of today isn't the Jon Anderson that performed on the albums that you mentioned above. Though I am sure that Yes could still record a respectable album with Anderson, the touring and shows that you fondly remember wouldn't occur at this point. Though Jon's voice is still respectable, I don't think he has the same power to belt out the full force Yes tunes like he used to. Seeing him perform with Transatlantic in a few months should verify how well he could do, but it still wouldn't confirm how his voice would hold up to a long term tour. I get your opinion more if your want is for the band to retire or become only a studio band. Beyond that though, if your want is for the band to be what they were in 1999, I think that ship has sailed for reasons beyond anyone's control.

[zutul]

Yes!!! Let's all sign a petition and send it to Chris Squire and Billy

[bondegezou]

You mention that you haven't seen the band with Davison. I have and perhaps part of it for me is that as much as I understood the Anderson situation and was more than willing to support the Beniot David led band, the situation with Davison just doesn't feel as natural to me. The lack of a real band feel also doesn't help in encouraging me to continue to see this band on every tour as I have for many years in the past.

That said, I welcome a studio album from the current lineup as perhaps that will help to solidify the band feel a bit more for me. Currently though, I am finding it hard to not see Yes as a band that has reached the point of going through the motions to a large extent.

Can you say more about why "the situation with Davison just doesn't feel as natural to" you? Davison seems to me to have re-invigorated the band (in part through being a more active writer than David) and, indeed, I sympathise with those who say they should have gone with him in 2008.

Henry

[Patelena396]

Can you say more about why "the situation with Davison just doesn't feel as natural to" you? Davison seems to me to have re-invigorated the band (in part through being a more active writer than David) and, indeed, I sympathise with those who say they should have gone with him in 2008.

Henry

I guess my response would mainly be to respectfully turn the question around and ask you why you feel this way and what you are basing it on? I have seen Davison with the band and although he does a good job of performing the classic material, I don't see that he has "re-invigorated" the band to any large extent. I saw them with Benoit David as well and thought the shows with him and Davison were pretty comparable. I should re emphasize that I haven't seen a bad show with either singer. They were good, but nothing that I needed to see on every opportunity.

To your question, it is hard to explain or put my finger on exactly why. Probably the best explanation is my previous one concerning the band going through the motions IMO. I never really felt that way with Yes before. Plus, as well as Davison performs the material, there could be some truth, as someone mentioned here, that he carries the stigma of being the second Anderson sounding replacement in just a few years. Though, as many fans may not know the difference, many do know what the deal is. It doesn't take away from the chance to hear this great material live, but perhaps to some level, does have some effect due to loss of authenticity. That said, as I mentioned previously, I am confident that Davison sounds better than Anderson at this point but that still doesn't make him Anderson. I can't say that I have ever watched a Yes show in the last 5 years or so without at least, thinking of Jon Anderson. It is impossible to not make comparisons to some degree.

As for Davison being a more active writer than David, I can assume that would be good, but will reserve opinion until I have seen or heard proof or results of it. I know that they are working on new material, but there is nothing to confirm at this point the level of his input or how much it will be reflected in the final product. I hope that they do utilize some fresh input from him and that the album is fantastic. That said, until I have heard the results, I can't really comment on how much he brings to the table in that respect. To date, I can only say that he is a guy who does a respectable job of making Yes still sound like Yes with Jon Anderson. I am confident that he is capable of more than that so hopefully the new album will happen and prove that.

[bondegezou]

I guess my response would mainly be to respectfully turn the question around and ask you why you feel this way and what you are basing it on? I have seen Davison with the band and although he does a good job of performing the classic material, I don't see that he has "re-invigorated" the band to any large extent. I saw them with Benoit David as well and thought the shows with him and Davison were pretty comparable.

I think the quality of live work has improved with Davison, and all of the band have raised their game. I'm hearing that he's getting on well with the band, and has been busy writing with other band members, in a way that wasn't happening with David.

Yes have an ambitious 2014 planned, with extensive touring planned, including, it appears, three different set lists to be performed through the course of the year (possibly a first for the band?), and a new album coming out. That implies a certain confidence: in terms of what they can sell, and in terms of what they can deliver.

Of course, the proof of the pudding will come with the new album, the choice of set lists, and the performances.

Henry

[Paulrus]

Support for new material live since 1996:

I was waiting for this. I take it back, Henry -- you should not have been a lawyer. You should have been a statistician.

You would love American baseball.

[Patelena396]

I think the quality of live work has improved with Davison, and all of the band have raised their game. I'm hearing that he's getting on well with the band, and has been busy writing with other band members, in a way that wasn't happening with David.

Yes have an ambitious 2014 planned, with extensive touring planned, including, it appears, three different set lists to be performed through the course of the year (possibly a first for the band?), and a new album coming out. That implies a certain confidence: in terms of what they can sell, and in terms of what they can deliver.

Of course, the proof of the pudding will come with the new album, the choice of set lists, and the performances.

Henry

I would be quite a bit more interested overall if that is how it plays out. Here's to hoping that things go as planned.

[bondegezou]

I was waiting for this. I take it back, Henry -- you should not have been a lawyer. You should have been a statistician.

You would love American baseball.

I am a Chartered Statistician of the Royal Statistical Society... and I have no love for baseball.

Henry

[JIF]

Yes-Time to FORget Jon Anderson & Rick Wakeman back in the group

BG

This has been the most sensible post in this insane thread.

[timmy]

Yes-Time to FORget Jon Anderson & Rick Wakeman back in the group

BG

This has been the most sensible post in this insane thread.

i totally agree.

[JIF]

i totally agree.

Actually, I was going to use a different word to describe this thread, but I choose not to.

[Frumious B]

Yeah, but Magnification and The Ladder had Jon Anderson, which according to you is supposed to equal sales gold. You can't have it both ways.



Which is why the new albums move back catalog. Frontiers gets that remaining 10% to 15% of peak sales Ian Anderson talked about, and then the average fan says, "Oh, yeah, I remember them. I really need to fill out my Yes collection."

There's no link anyone can produce that will show us total worldwide sales for The Ladder, Magnification and Fly From Here so we don't actually know how true or not true the claim that Fly From Here sold the most actually is. We have chart positions that show sales relative to other releases and Fly From Here did peak higher its first week out of the box than its two predecessors, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has sold more actual units. I'd want to see complete sales figures for all three before just accepting that claim. The Ladder and Magnification have stayed in print and have been reissued a couple of times since they first came out so clearly there is some incentive on the part of someone to keep those albums around.

Anyway, take Yes out of it and pretend you own the label. You have a choice between trying to sell a new album by a full or near full reunion of the most celebrated version of a once popular dinosaur band or by a version of another once popular dinosaur band with some of the old school guys plus an unknown new singer. There's only cash in the budget to finance one project. Neither is a slam dunk guarantee for success, but which record do you think would be easier for you to sell?

[JIF]

There's no link anyone can produce that will show us total worldwide sales for The Ladder, Magnification and Fly From Here so we don't actually know how true or not true the claim that Fly From Here sold the most actually is. We have chart positions that show sales relative to other releases and Fly From Here did peak higher its first week out of the box than its two predecessors, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has sold more actual units. I'd want to see complete sales figures for all three before just accepting that claim. The Ladder and Magnification have stayed in print and have been reissued a couple of times since they first came out so clearly there is some incentive on the part of someone to keep those albums around.

Anyway, take Yes out of it and pretend you own the label. You have a choice between trying to sell a new album by a full or near full reunion of the most celebrated version of a once popular dinosaur band or by a version of another once popular dinosaur band with some of the old school guys plus an unknown new singer. There's only cash in the budget to finance one project. Neither is a slam dunk guarantee for success, but which record do you think would be easier for you to sell?

Anyway you slice it, you're going to lose. So, quite while you're head before Henry puts you in your place. Yes obviously did quite well with FFH if Frontiers is willing to keep them around for another studio album. If you are a true Yes fan, I guess it doesn't matter that the present lineup clicks. You just want JA back knowing full well that he won't make it. He hasn't really shown poof that he is ready for, or wants to be in, Yes. He can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk?

[ronmac]

Yes obviously did quite well with FFH if Frontiers is willing to keep them around for another studio album.

Not necessarily. It just means that they met expectations, which could have been modest. Some labels hold onto big names to help promote the label and incidentally, their other bands. So, we really don't know that FFH did "quite well."

[JIF]

Not necessarily. It just means that they met expectations, which could have been modest. Some labels hold onto big names to help promote the label and incidentally, their other bands. So, we really don't know that FFH did "quite well."

I'm sure that Henry will tell us soon enough.

[bondegezou]

Anyway, take Yes out of it and pretend you own the label. You have a choice between trying to sell a new album by a full or near full reunion of the most celebrated version of a once popular dinosaur band or by a version of another once popular dinosaur band with some of the old school guys plus an unknown new singer. There's only cash in the budget to finance one project. Neither is a slam dunk guarantee for success, but which record do you think would be easier for you to sell?

First off, we've drifted so far from your original point that I don't see what any of this is meant to prove. Would Anderson back in Yes sell better? Yes, very probably. Does that mean that Yes without Anderson is going to be forced by the label to be more conservative in their compositional approach -- which was your earlier claim? No, that's not been remotely proven.

Let's consider another angle. Pretend you own a label. You have a choice between "a full or near full reunion of the most celebrated version of a once popular dinosaur band", but the band members are clearly at each others' throats, can't agree on anything, haven't written together for over a decade, and it's unclear whether the singer can do or wants to do much touring to promote a new album; or "a version of another once popular dinosaur band with some of the old school guys plus an unknown new singer" who appear to be getting on well, have been delivering on a busy touring schedule and turn up at your office with a set of demos ready to record. There's only cash in the budget to finance one project. Neither is a slam dunk guarantee for success, but which record do you think would be a safer bet?

There you go: you've offered a hypothetical choice, I've offered a hypothetical choice. The reality is that Anderson is not in Yes and there's no reunion currently on the cards. Yes with the current line-up, however, are going into the studio in January and have, presumably, already made plans with Frontiers for the new album's release. You have a real choice, I have a real choice, everyone reading this thread has a real choice: that choice is to buy the next Yes album, or not to buy the next Yes album. There is no 'Yes-with-Anderson' choice available.

Henry

[JIF]

Well said, Henry. Now, he comes Frumious with basically the same thing he says in every Yes thread. "Yes needs Jon Anderson".

[bondegezou]

There's no link anyone can produce that will show us total worldwide sales for The Ladder, Magnification and Fly From Here so we don't actually know how true or not true the claim that Fly From Here sold the most actually is. We have chart positions that show sales relative to other releases and Fly From Here did peak higher its first week out of the box than its two predecessors, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has sold more actual units. I'd want to see complete sales figures for all three before just accepting that claim. The Ladder and Magnification have stayed in print and have been reissued a couple of times since they first came out so clearly there is some incentive on the part of someone to keep those albums around.

Fly from Here certainly charted significantly better. #30 in the UK compared to The Ladder's #36 or worse for the other albums since Talk (Talk made #20). In the US, FfH made #36, compared to #99 for The Ladder and Keys to Ascension or worse since Talk (Talk was only slightly better on #33). FfH also charted well in multiple other countries (e.g. #16 in Germany).

Sales figures are much harder to come by. By around the end of November 2011, about 5 months after its release, I was told Fly from Here had sold 72,000 copies worldwide, including 32,000 in the US. (The band, reportedly, feel the the album sold well most places, but under-performed in the US.) A report at the beginning of Feb 2012, so about 7 months after release, said the total figure was just short of 100,000. Downes said in early March 2012 that Fly from Here has sold more copies than Magnification.

For comparison, and this is SoundScan data so reliable, Keys to Ascension had sold about 55,000 copies in the US in its first 13 months. By late November 1999, Keys to Ascension had sold about 63,000 copies in the US; Keys to Ascension 2 48,000; Open Your Eyes 40,000; The Ladder, after about 2 months, 42,000; and Talk, 298,000. (On the other hand, Sherwood has said Open Your Eyes sold better (worldwide?) than the other 1996-2004 albums.) In the UK, again on reliable sales figures, Magnification sold about 10,000 copies after 5 months, climbing to about 14,000 after 1 year. The Ladder sold about 20,000 in the UK. It's difficult to compare those figures, for different territories at different intervals after release. Fly from Here would appear to be in the same ballpark as these others albums since Talk, if better than some.

Not necessarily. It just means that they met expectations, which could have been modest. Some labels hold onto big names to help promote the label and incidentally, their other bands. So, we really don't know that FFH did "quite well."

I think it's pretty clear that Fly from Here sold well compared to most of Frontiers' catalogue and compared to most prog albums. 98% of the acts discussed on ProgressiveEars would kill for sales like that.

Henry

[Scott Bails]

Anyway, take Yes out of it and pretend you own the label. You have a choice between trying to sell a new album by a full or near full reunion of the most celebrated version of a once popular dinosaur band or by a version of another once popular dinosaur band with some of the old school guys plus an unknown new singer. There's only cash in the budget to finance one project. Neither is a slam dunk guarantee for success, but which record do you think would be easier for you to sell?

If I own a label, I wouldn't let Anderson anywhere near Yes right now.

1) I'd want a new album, and Anderson has expressed no interest in this.
2) I'd want the band to tour, and Anderson can't do the kind of tour that would be demanded
3) The other members really don't seem interested in working with him, and that's only going to lead to trouble.


All of your arguments just don't make sense to me, If I own a label.

Anderson may present himself as some magic fairy sometimes, but he's not an instant path to success with Yes, IMO.