"Diss tracks" aren't just for hip-hop (Brett Kull vs. Chris Buzby)

[devoidzer0]

Back in 1996, after echolyn had split up due to a bad deal with Sony, three of the band members formed "Still" (a straight ahead rock power trio-ish band with very little prog influence), while Chris Buzby (the keyboardist) formed Finneus Gauge, a prog-fusion band with a female singer that was pretty experimental and "out there."

There was apparently a lot of animosity from the Still camp toward Buzby at the time, particularly from Brett Kull. The song "Tread On" was on the second Still album (the band changed their name to "Always Almost") and Brett Kull's lyrics have some pretty obvious and pointed barbs directed at Buzby.

I thought diss tracks only happened in rap, but here is an example of one in the prog world. Thankfully, the guys patched things up by 2000 and reformed echolyn, and have continued giving us some amazing albums ever since. I wonder how Brett feels about this song in retrospect, and if he regrets airing his dirty laundry in public.

For anyone interested, here's the song (btw, I have the permission of the band to upload this song to YouTube since the albums are out of print):



And the lyrics:

Always Almost - "Tread On" (lyrics by Brett Kull)

Super Duper Boundry Pusher
Tell me once again how big you really are
9/8, 5/4, 17/2 - "Prog" me baby until I'm blue

I'm not living for your dreams
I'm not living through your dreams

Iconoclastic concept king
Blow your trumpet, crowd kiss your ring
Your left hand knows the right's giving alms
I overheard it in the songs

I am not everything
I am not anything to you
I'm only me...

Big hands, big words, big spoons feeding and feeding
Tread on trends, tread on trends
Check your friends, tread on...

[bRETT]

Nastiest one I know is "Long Gone" by the Guess Who (Flavours album)-- Thought to be about Randy Bachman, but actually about Greg Lewkiw.

Also: Eno-- Dead Finks Don't Talk, apparently about Ferry.

Elvis Costello-- "How To be Dumb," about Bruce Thomas.

And Richard Thompson's "Here COmes Geordie". He's denied it's about Sting, but nobody believes him.

[trurl]

And of course, the whole Paul/John "Too Many People"-"How Do You Sleep" thing...

[zombywoof]

And Richard Thompson's "Here COmes Geordie". He's denied it's about Sting, but nobody believes him.

On his "Live in Providence" DVD, before performing 'Outside of the Inside', he quips (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is a song that one reviewer claimed made Sting look humble and unpretentious. I quite like that. I can work with that!"

RT's the man!

[eporter66]

I am a big echolyn fan, but I guessed I missed this altogether. I did not know about the issues b/t band members (although every band has them). The one thing I remember from the Stars & Gardens DVD is when Tom Hyatt left, he sort of snuck in, got his equipment out so he would not have to deal with it face to face. Sounds like things did go sour with the band for awhile.

I for one am glad they patched things up, as much as I love ATW, they have definitely put out a lot of excellent music since they got back together! They seem to be happy playing together, and that is all that matters!

[Yanks2014]

Hearing that song makes me very happy they got back together. I actually liked Finneus Gauge a lot, still listen to both discs. But Still, never got around to it, and if this song is any example, I'm happy I saved my money.

[devoidzer0]

Hearing that song makes me very happy they got back together. I actually liked Finneus Gauge a lot, still listen to both discs. But Still, never got around to it, and if this song is any example, I'm happy I saved my money.

I think I liked the concept of Finneus Gauge more than the music itself. The players were competent to exceptional (especially Scott McGill's guitar playing, who channeled Holdsworth). The one exception was Chris's brother Jonn on drums. To me he was a weak link, and not convincing as a technical drummer (he sounded like a rudimentary drummer trying to be technical). I don't think the players had very good chemistry together. The instruments didn't gel well together to my ears. In general, I didn't think the songwriting was that strong or memorable, and the production was very weak. Of course, there are some good tracks, and I don't think all the songs are terrible, but nothing stands out to me as having lasting value.

On the other hand, Still was comprised of 3 guys who had been playing together for probably close to 10 years by that point. The chemistry was already there, and it was completely natural. You have the amazing songwriting of Brett Kull, the brilliant lyrics of Kull and Weston, and the session-musician-caliber drumming of Paul Ramsey. I can't forget Brett's production skills (which were still in their infancy at that point, but he must've done something right because the albums sound great). Musically, it wasn't prog at all, it was pretty diverse with influences from blues rock to Americana to power pop to grunge. Not being a prog snob, but rather a music fan, I enjoyed the 2 albums they put out immensely, and hope the rumored third album comes to fruition.

[JAMOOL]

Finneus Gauge were definitely cool but I'm not a big fan of those discs, they seem quite poorly recorded to me, and the singing is really not good. The songs were quite interesting though. Still/Always Almost to me feels like Echolyn-lite, as though they just said to each other "why are we killing ourselves writing such difficult and complex music, let's just rock out a bit". I like God Pounds His Nails a lot, it's fairly close to a bonafide Echolyn album, with some real brilliant stuff towards the end ("Airs and Envy" and the excellent Gentle Giant cover)

[Gerhard]

I was fortunate to see Still / Always Almost in concert several times in the late 90's, and they were great live. I got to see FG once or twice as well, and enjoyed them too, but not as much as Brett/Ray/Paul.

Speaking of Richard Thompson, how about this for a diss track? Nothing veiled about who the target is in this one...

[battema]

When I saw Finneus Gauge at Orion back in (maybe?) 1996...Chris introduced the song "King of the Chord Change" with some comments that kind of were slight barbs toward his old bandmates. Nothing exceptionally harsh, but certainly a mild dig.

I loved FG live, but was underwhelmed with the sound quality of the recordings.

It's all the past now though, and I'm glad to see echolyn seems to be in a happier place.

[zombywoof]

Speaking of Richard Thompson, how about this for a diss track? Nothing veiled about who the target is in this one...

[JKL2000]

Not prog, but there was the song by John Fogarty about Saul Zaentz (owner of Fantasy Records or something?) which for some reason Fogarty had to change from "Zantz Kant Danz" to "Vanz Kant Danz." But the video featured an animated pig - prominently.
You can read about the whole beef on Wikipedia, of course. It's what I thought of when Zaentz died recently.

[Yanks2014]

I think I liked the concept of Finneus Gauge more than the music itself. The players were competent to exceptional (especially Scott McGill's guitar playing, who channeled Holdsworth). The one exception was Chris's brother Jonn on drums. To me he was a weak link, and not convincing as a technical drummer (he sounded like a rudimentary drummer trying to be technical). I don't think the players had very good chemistry together. The instruments didn't gel well together to my ears. In general, I didn't think the songwriting was that strong or memorable, and the production was very weak. Of course, there are some good tracks, and I don't think all the songs are terrible, but nothing stands out to me as having lasting value.

On the other hand, Still was comprised of 3 guys who had been playing together for probably close to 10 years by that point. The chemistry was already there, and it was completely natural. You have the amazing songwriting of Brett Kull, the brilliant lyrics of Kull and Weston, and the session-musician-caliber drumming of Paul Ramsey. I can't forget Brett's production skills (which were still in their infancy at that point, but he must've done something right because the albums sound great). Musically, it wasn't prog at all, it was pretty diverse with influences from blues rock to Americana to power pop to grunge. Not being a prog snob, but rather a music fan, I enjoyed the 2 albums they put out immensely, and hope the rumored third album comes to fruition.

To me FG were a VERY cohesive lineup, and I never had a problem with the drumming. And I really liked Laura Martin's vocals. She was far more than a singer with them, but a true musician.

The Still or Always Almost (Why change the band name?) track is just missing that creative spart. It's like taking all of what's great about Echolyn, but removing the magic, not sure what else to call it. It's fairly well composed, but it's just blah to me.

[Yanks2014]

Finneus Gauge were definitely cool but I'm not a big fan of those discs, they seem quite poorly recorded to me, and the singing is really not good. The songs were quite interesting though.

I'm confounded by any complaint about the vocals, I thought Martin did an exceptional job on these albums. I just love her voice, and it fit them like a glove.

[zeprogmeister]

Finneus Gauge were definitely cool but I'm not a big fan of those discs, they seem quite poorly recorded to me, and the singing is really not good. The songs were quite interesting though. Still/Always Almost to me feels like Echolyn-lite, as though they just said to each other "why are we killing ourselves writing such difficult and complex music, let's just rock out a bit". I like God Pounds His Nails a lot, it's fairly close to a bonafide Echolyn album, with some real brilliant stuff towards the end ("Airs and Envy" and the excellent Gentle Giant cover)

This is about how I feel about them.

[Sputnik]

Prompted by this thread, I listened to the first Finneus Gauge album last night. I can understand some of the criticisms. I don't think the album is mixed that well, particularly the drums, which lack punch in the bass drum and toms. But musically, I have to say I really enjoyed hearing this again after not spinning it for a long time. I recall when I got this album it did take me a bit to acclimate to Laura Martin's vocals, but once I got used to the "tone" of her voice, I started to appreciate what she did with FG. For a 72 minute long album, this one held my attention surprisingly well, and I thought the quality level was pretty consistent. I recall liking the second album even better, so I'll give that a spin soon.

It's probably sacrilege to some, but I like the two FG albums more than the post AtW Echolyn. The possible exception is Mei, which I like, but I'd still probably take the FG stuff over that album if forced to choose. I recall sampling Still and GPHN back when they came out and not being much impressed. But maybe I'll revisit (at least play the song above, when I have access to some computer speakers).

As far as "diss" songs, I did think of one that is Prog and might qualify, Themes from ABWH's first album. I guess he's sort of dissing the music industry, but one could sort of read it as dissing the YesWest dudes. I know there was a ton of tension around Big Generator, and it always struck me he was sort of talking to Rabin and Squire in this song. Of course, they patched it up eventually... when Jon ran out of money.

Bill

[dpt3]

Hmm... I was aware there was quite a bit of tension amongst the echolyn members after the breakup, but had no idea that song was meant as a diss against Buzby.

It's interesting that both camps seemed to go for a "low-fi" sound after the split. Presumably in response to the very heavily produced AtW?

I seem to remember liking John Buzby's Land of Chocolate albums a bit more than I liked the FG albums, though they seem to be very much a continuation of the same style.

[proghutch]

The Still or Always Almost (Why change the band name?)

Another band had rights to Still so the boys had to change names"

[philsunset]

There's the song "Miss Broadway". Kevin Gilbert dissing Sheryl Crow.

[Gerhard]

The Still or Always Almost (Why change the band name?)

I still hope the three of them record another album one day and release it as "Still", by God Pounds His Nails.

[ChrisXymphonia]

Back on topic: Marillion's Assassin is a diss towards former drummer Mick Pointer IIRC.

[Yanks2014]

It's interesting that both camps seemed to go for a "low-fi" sound after the split. Presumably in response to the very heavily produced AtW?

Was it intentional, or more likely just a matter of not having the same recording budget? Say what you want about the Sony deal, but they were allowed a ton of studio time for that, maybe too much.

[Yanks2014]

The Still or Always Almost (Why change the band name?)
Another band had rights to Still so the boys had to change names"

Good reason then. I'm always amazed that groups get challenged, sometime even by bands without a record deal. I'm still waiting for that first album by Majesty... Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they did record something? Oh well, Dream Theater had the last laugh, though I still prefer the original name.

[Yves]

IIRC, the album that would have followed the Always Almost release would have been by a band called "God Pounds His Nails"...

I like both the Still and Always Almost releases, the latter being a little more prog-oriented while the former was almost grunge. I always got the impression that Brett, Paul, and Ray just wanted to jam together and the result ended up being the Still album. Finneus Gauge never did anything for me and I quickly got rid of that release.

As to the topic of the thread, I have heard that song many times and am now reading the lyrics and I never would have guessed it was a jibe towards Chris.

[battema]

Was it intentional, or more likely just a matter of not having the same recording budget? Say what you want about the Sony deal, but they were allowed a ton of studio time for that, maybe too much.

As I understand it, Brett Kull has considerable studio chops, so he would probably have made better use of the lower budget (to my ears, Still is significantly better sounding than either of the FG releases). Chris Buzby is an incredibly creative composer, but I don't think he is nearly as skilled an engineer, and the FG albums felt almost like basement demos to me. It was what it was though...recording quality aside there were some pretty interesting songs coming from both camps, and in some ways you can hear the prototypes for what subseqently became the "new" Echolyn sound.

IMHO.