Magma news

[Iluvatar]

From the responses here, I should apologize. This was IMHO.

And yes, MAGMA is novel Country & Western (haha) – not Prog. That was very funny. Still laughing.

I am going to defer the 3 post effort since it is becoming obvious that it will be dismissed immediately. It would be a waste of my time.

Labels may be for CANS, man. But they also get attached to things, sorta like biology (are you plant or animal?). (It would be nice to know the difference)

But from my reading? What credence do you give to Prog Archives? Are you in agreement with their genre schema? I would really like to know. My gripes are severe with PA. And that was the basis for my criticism.

But at the end of the day? The genre labels attached in PA for bands like Led Zep, Spirit, Spooky Tooth, Zappa, and Santana are absolutely bizarre (and erroneous IMHO). But where they went off the grid was with Miles Davis (from PA: Jazz Rock/Fusion / Progressive Rock). IMHO!

Miles was a 60s Jazz player who was avant-garde. IMHO, he enabled the genre of the 70s called Jazz Fusion (Chic Corea and RTF, etc.). And he is labeled as above? When I told my 2 hep cats about this, the telephone calls were abruptly terminated b/c they had to go vomit!

If I were to believe the genres over @ PA, then I would conclude that “Prog” doesn’t mean anything anymore. The “CAN” has a label so wide that it doesn’t mean anything anymore (that’s a real big umbrella you are sporting, sir!).

I believe that many of the forum members here are major contributors over @ PA. So sorry to make you angry.

In the 70s, “prog” used to mean something. I guess it doesn’t anymore, IMHO. I will never say that I listen to “prog” again.

I am still interested in your take of Prog Archives however – I remain confused of the situation here.
Your informed responses would be very helpful – thanks


P.S. Dana, don’t bother replying to this post. I got my answer. Sigh…

[Rarebird]

From the responses here, I should apologize. This was IMHO.

And yes, MAGMA is novel Country & Western (haha) – not Prog. That was very funny. Still laughing.

I am going to defer the 3 post effort since it is becoming obvious that it will be dismissed immediately. It would be a waste of my time.

Labels may be for CANS, man. But they also get attached to things, sorta like biology (are you plant or animal?). (It would be nice to know the difference)

But from my reading? What credence do you give to Prog Archives? Are you in agreement with their genre schema? I would really like to know. My gripes are severe with PA. And that was the basis for my criticism.

But at the end of the day? The genre labels attached in PA for bands like Led Zep, Spirit, Spooky Tooth, Zappa, and Santana are absolutely bizarre (and erroneous IMHO). But where they went off the grid was with Miles Davis (from PA: Jazz Rock/Fusion / Progressive Rock). IMHO!

Miles was a 60s Jazz player who was avant-garde. IMHO, he enabled the genre of the 70s called Jazz Fusion (Chic Corea and RTF, etc.). And he is labeled as above? When I told my 2 hep cats about this, the telephone calls were abruptly terminated b/c they had to go vomit!

If I were to believe the genres over @ PA, then I would conclude that “Prog” doesn’t mean anything anymore. The “CAN” has a label so wide that it doesn’t mean anything anymore (that’s a real big umbrella you are sporting, sir!).

I believe that many of the forum members here are major contributors over @ PA. So sorry to make you angry.

In the 70s, “prog” used to mean something. I guess it doesn’t anymore, IMHO. I will never say that I listen to “prog” again.

I am still interested in your take of Prog Archives however – I remain confused of the situation here.
Your informed responses would be very helpful – thanks


P.S. Dana, don’t bother replying to this post. I got my answer. Sigh…

I still wonder how you would label Magma, if not prog? I've never seen them labeled otherwise. Perhaps you don't like them, that doesn't make them not prog.
Your stance reminds me on some music-critic, who didn't consider Van der Graaf Generator prog, because he liked them.

[Trane]

But from my reading? What credence do you give to Prog Archives? Are you in agreement with their genre schema? I would really like to know. My gripes are severe with PA. And that was the basis for my criticism.

But at the end of the day? The genre labels attached in PA for bands like Led Zep, Spirit, Spooky Tooth, Zappa, and Santana are absolutely bizarre (and erroneous IMHO). But where they went off the grid was with Miles Davis (from PA: Jazz Rock/Fusion / Progressive Rock). IMHO!

Miles was a 60s Jazz player who was avant-garde. IMHO, he enabled the genre of the 70s called Jazz Fusion (Chic Corea and RTF, etc.). And he is labeled as above? When I told my 2 hep cats about this, the telephone calls were abruptly terminated b/c they had to go vomit!

If I were to believe the genres over @ PA, then I would conclude that “Prog” doesn’t mean anything anymore. The “CAN” has a label so wide that it doesn’t mean anything anymore (that’s a real big umbrella you are sporting, sir!).

I believe that many of the forum members here are major contributors over @ PA. So sorry to make you angry.

In the 70s, “prog” used to mean something. I guess it doesn’t anymore, IMHO. I will never say that I listen to “prog” again.

I am still interested in your take of Prog Archives however – I remain confused of the situation here.
Your informed responses would be very helpful – thanks

Maybe you should take your hatred over there, instead of PE...
Or maybe you did and found yourself unlistened to.

Your username (called "pseudo" in French) hints that you're a neo-prog fan or at least a symphonic-only prog fan (called "symph-weenie" in all langages).

PA has always been about inclusiveness not about setting up barriers and having to show a sufficient amount of symphonic weeny-ness to be allowed in the "prog" fortress. This always bothered those that claimed themselves as "defender of the prog faith" and would like to see the scope of "prog" exclude all other forms of progressive musics.
PA knows full-well its weaknesses and if they could, they would remedy to a lot of flaws. But PA started in different web era than where we are at today. The subgenres have been (or have become for a while) a weak link in the site, but unfortunately, the database was built along a certain canvas, which at the time did not allow multiple genre. According to the site owner (he's a professional website designer), no such structural changes can be brought to the PA DB without risking the whole thing crumbling or being lost.

If you're so dead set about the way PA goes about it, you can always create your prog site with all the barriers and limitations you want to set-up.
In any case, PE =/= PA , but most here use the second for information as much as they use RYM or Discogs for their musical adventures.


Ssssoooooooooooooo, Yes ( ), PA is not perfect, but nothing to piss your panties about or declare a fatwah against for prog blasphemy, by declaring them aan anti-symphonic antechrist.
Just use it for what it's good to you for... or don't use it at all, for all we care.

[NogbadTheBad]

Well said sir

[The Czar]

I think I just heard the mic drop!
Trane for the win!

[GuitarGeek]

Actually, Magma aren't prog. They're better than prog!

[Kcrimso]

Actually, Magma aren't prog. They're better than prog!

Nope. Magma IS prog that is better than most other prog.

[Iluvatar]

I still wonder how you would label Magma, if not prog? I've never seen them labeled otherwise. Perhaps you don't like them, that doesn't make them not prog.
Your stance reminds me on some music-critic, who didn't consider Van der Graaf Generator prog, because he liked them.

Hi Rarebird,

All that follows is IMHO

I think there is a miscommunication issue at hand. This is my impoverished effort to rectify.

To answer your question, I would create a new Mega-genre called “Alternate Rock Forms” under which Prog Rock would be nestled (after much downsizing).

Magma would be nestled in as its own sub-genre separated from Prog with its own name: Zuehl. Additional subgenres would include several stragglers who don’t seem to fit the mold like Nil and Crack The Sky (who I always erroneously called a band that was one note short of a good tune until I appreciated their abrupt time signatures and Jazz-like strategies). There are a ton of other bands who don’t fit “the mold” either. The downsizing of Prog Rock would include Led Zep, Spirit, Spooky Tooth, and Santana. Let them go back to Rock where they belong.

One could also creating a Mega-genre called “Alternate Rock/Jazz Forms”. Then, one could nestle in Jazz Fusion and Jazz Fusion Proto comfortably as subgenres, having their own respectable place in space/time. Jazz Fusion Proto would comfortably nestle Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Oscar Peterson, et. al. But at least? They would be called Jazz. It is what they are.

As to MAGMA? Fantastic band! I may have to buy their stuff next year since I have burned my budget this year on the books and all of the Steve Miller Band’s early albums (at the suggestion of another wise forum member – thank-you!!). And I have to back-fill my collection of the Moody Blues – I loves those guys.

Lastly, VDDG is totally hot Progressive Rock (sorry to mislead you on that). I only have their 1st 5 albums in my collection, but, I likes `em. I believe they were one of the bands that started Prog (70-80s definition). But then, I also called Kraftwerk, Eloy, and Focus out as beginners as well. Prog didn’t just boil out of Britain, it also spawned off the continent.

Hope this is helpful?

This is one of my favorites. I am very partial to this tune – enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvuCY23bsu8

[Iluvatar]

Maybe you should take your hatred over there, instead of PE...
Or maybe you did and found yourself unlistened to.

Your username (called "pseudo" in French) hints that you're a neo-prog fan or at least a symphonic-only prog fan (called "symph-weenie" in all langages).

PA has always been about inclusiveness not about setting up barriers and having to show a sufficient amount of symphonic weeny-ness to be allowed in the "prog" fortress. This always bothered those that claimed themselves as "defender of the prog faith" and would like to see the scope of "prog" exclude all other forms of progressive musics.
PA knows full-well its weaknesses and if they could, they would remedy to a lot of flaws. But PA started in different web era than where we are at today. The subgenres have been (or have become for a while) a weak link in the site, but unfortunately, the database was built along a certain canvas, which at the time did not allow multiple genre. According to the site owner (he's a professional website designer), no such structural changes can be brought to the PA DB without risking the whole thing crumbling or being lost.

If you're so dead set about the way PA goes about it, you can always create your prog site with all the barriers and limitations you want to set-up.
In any case, PE =/= PA , but most here use the second for information as much as they use RYM or Discogs for their musical adventures.


Ssssoooooooooooooo, Yes ( ), PA is not perfect, but nothing to piss your panties about or declare a fatwah against for prog blasphemy, by declaring them aan anti-symphonic antechrist.
Just use it for what it's good to you for... or don't use it at all, for all we care.

Hi Trane,

I am absent of any hatred displayed. Huh? I am disappointed for sure.
PA? Never posted there – never will.

My soon to be expired username is Iluvatar, As a 1st gen French person, Iluvatar does not literally translate to “pseudo” in my knowledge??

I am trying to digest your helpful notes that followed.

To clarify, NOT neo (I am not sure what that means anymore either). Listen to a lot of stuff, spanning about 5 decades. There is some really good stuff over that time span. I wouldn’t call someone who loves Liquid Tension Experiment as a “symph-weenie”. But that’s just me. But then again, I like good ol’ hard rock like Black Sabbath – have all their early albums. Taught my kids on that as part of their “Music Appreciation Course 101”.

I want to thank you for your explanation of what is going on over at Prog Archives. You know? It occurs to me that their all-inclusiveness may have been b/c there was nothing else? PA has been around since at least the 90s. Where else was there to capture in a web-site to accommodate all the new music coming in? IMHO, they have pulled some heavy weight and, IMHO taken on more than they should have (cf. previous post).

But sooner or later, the all-inclusiveness dilutes your site to a point wherein it becomes impossible to navigate the site (the site was difficult to navigate in the `90s). And it is apparent that they have become overcome. That’s sad. People who want to experiment with Prog are going to have a difficult time.

Holy cow! So that prog site has a total database re-design on their plates? Crap. That is gonna be a mongo huge redesign. Where are the personnel to do the re-design? This is a major re-design! And on top of that, they would need to allow sub-sub-genres (sorta like biological taxonomy, since ELP doesn’t really sound like YES or Genesis). What a major effort would be involved. You have to architect for multiple tiers rather than being flat (e.g., Prog, and then a huge splay of sub-genres, rather than breaking down the sub-genres into sub-sub-genres and further).

And, on top of that, the database design must allow for bands to find themselves in different genres besides (e.g., Uriah Heep: in prog but also in hard rock, per Mike Barnes in his book “A New Day Yesterday”, page 1 (I didn’t have to read very far to confirm my own opinions), quoting: “Uriah Heep released an album ‘Demons and Wizards’ in 1972, but although they had some aspects common with the progressive rockers, they also had another stack-heeled boot in the hard rock camp”.

Yes they did Sir, (I only have Uriah’s 1st 11 albums/CDS), but his statement is accurate. Ditto goes for bands like Journey. They went rock with a couple of prog-like songs (“Topaz”) then went Power Pop when Steve joined the show.

Ya know? Shoulda known better. An ex-buddy of mine was a contributor over on PA. He complained that the website was not being maintained. His view? It’s like there is no one home!

To bring this conversation to closure, please let me thank you for your very helpful insight. I am copying down RYM and Discogs. It is very helpful to know the difficulties over @ PA, I appreciate your insight.

Oh, btw “Demons and Wizards” is great, can I suggest “Salisbury”?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asM5m0i-_OE



Or can I suggest LTE: “3 minute warning”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csmT1ZvOP_Y


Mike has got to be the best double bass drummer I have ever heard. But! He ain’t better than Billie Cobham – the 1st drummer to invent the open-handed drumming style. Dude was from Panama.
But! Wait a sec! Billie was Jazz. Crap. That ends this thought thread, for sure.



P.S. I didn’t drop the mic, I accidently stepped on it – it is toast…
P.P.S. I think my panties are still on? I only where jock straps, crap.

[Iluvatar]

Thank-you!


I wanted to take this moment to thank you all for your tutelage, insights, and wisdom.
This has been very helpful – I have learned a lot.
Thank you for your help! You guys are great!

Thanks

[Rarebird]

Still I consider Magma as another part of the prog-movement, meaning music that broke the boundaries of rock and mixed it with influences of other genres, like classical and jazz. But I don't want to open a can of worms and start a whole new discussion on what is prog and what not.
Perhaps Frank Zappa wasn't originally considered prog and perhaps jazz-rock was often seen as a seperate genre, besides prog, at least, that is what I remember from my youth, but I think Magma was mostly put under the prog-umbrella, which might have gotten wider in the later years and perhaps for some a bit to wide. I don't think we need a new genre. Let's consider Magma prog and perhaps groups that were even more groundbreaking, like Henry Cow, avant garde (though it seems to be considered prog nowadays). Name it like you want it. I'm ok with prog as well.

[moecurlythanu]

As for the subject of Progarchives, I think it's pretty much a joke, especially those silly subgenres. The few times I visited the forum, it seemed to be a bit of a noob fest, which is fine, everyone has to start somewhere. But I didn't find much to sink my teeth into. However, as Trane said, if you don't like it, don't visit. Which is what I do. I don't visit. At all. Even when Google points in that direction. Easily done.

[Rarebird]

As for the subject of Progarchives, I think it's pretty much a joke, especially those silly subgenres. The few times I visited the forum, it seemed to be a bit of a noob fest, which is fine, everyone has to start somewhere. But I didn't find much to sink my teeth into. However, as Trane said, if you don't like it, don't visit. Which is what I do. I don't visit. At all. Even when Google points in that direction. Easily done.

I mostly use Progarchives to find out a bit more about certain groups and their discography and to read reviews.

[moecurlythanu]

I mostly use Progarchives to find out a bit more about certain groups and their discography and to read reviews.

I find I use Discogs the most for that type of legwork. It helps that you can buy the albums and/or watch/listen to linked YouTube videos there as well.

[NogbadTheBad]

PA is fine, I'm there every day and im on 2 genre teams. Their forum has a different vibe than here. We dont need to be bashing each other.

[smcfee]

So in Magma news...

Thierry Eliez is going to be recording a tribute album to Keith Emerson. It's on their Facebook.

OK, had to start somewhere.

[The Czar]

I think you should use prog archives to get info on bands and not care about the genre or sub genre. They are NOT going to redo it because a few people don't agree with who is or is not prog.

Just listen to the music and stop worrying about what labels are attached.

It's like when people get upset for people using the term hair metal.

It's a non-issue.

[DrGoon]

Comparing different streaming services, it looks like Apple has one of the worst selections of Magma's music, with most of the newer albums missing. Does anyone know why that is the case?
(Btw, 1st post of a long time lurker - I registered to ask this because this seems to be the best place to get an answer for this)

There are all kinds of reasons why that might be the case, and you would probably need to ask their management to know for sure. Qobuz has most of the studio albums (all except Köhntarkösz and Félicité Thösz) and a good amount of the live and compilation albums on offer for both streaming and purchase in CD quality. Zëss is available in 24 bit quality. Notably, Qobuz pays artists around 10 times as much as Apple and 15 times as much as Spotify per stream.

[chalkpie]

I mostly use Progarchives to find out a bit more about certain groups and their discography and to read reviews.

Yep. It's mostly great that way. Sometimes I am bewildered at a low rating of an album that I love, but say la vee. What does stink (for instance) is someone who hates Henry Cow or Zappa and gives Uncle Meat or Unrest a 1 out of 5 stars, which lowers the overall rating. Why review it if you hate something going in? Having said that, I'm glad it exists and there are some very insightful and well-written reviews to counter the haters.

[Mascodagama]

Sometimes I am bewildered at a low rating of an album that I love, but say la vee. What does stink (for instance) is someone who hates Henry Cow or Zappa and gives Uncle Meat or Unrest a 1 out of 5 stars, which lowers the overall rating. Why review it if you hate something going in? Having said that, I'm glad it exists and there are some very insightful and well-written reviews to counter the haters.

There certainly are some know-nothing reviews - to be expected when any bum can roll in off the street and give his two cents (...shortly after buying an album that's beyond his frame of reference and blaming the artist for his limitations...). Richard has an extensive scrapbook of these! But actually for the more specialised genres such as RIO/avant it's easy to sort the wheat from the chaff. Also key is to find those reviewers who write insightfully and/or whose tastes chime with your own - you can then find a lot of interesting things by looking at what those people have reviewed via their personal page.

[Trane]

Yep. It's mostly great that way. Sometimes I am bewildered at a low rating of an album that I love, but say la vee. What does stink (for instance) is someone who hates Henry Cow or Zappa and gives Uncle Meat or Unrest a 1 out of 5 stars, which lowers the overall rating. Why review it if you hate something going in? Having said that, I'm glad it exists and there are some very insightful and well-written reviews to counter the haters.

one bad rating will not send the overall rating down, especially if not accompanied with a review.
We have a weighing scheme installed ever since the beginning
A rating alone by John Doe is only worth 1/10 of a full review by collabs and 1/3 of a review by a non-collab.
Collabs can submit ratings-only, but I don't think it's worth much (1/3 of a review) either.

There is a team out to search for bogus reviews and obvious skewing ratings (this is also valid for 5* fanboys scribblings).

[Dana5140]

I've been away for the past 9 days visiting my kids and grandkids after not seeing them for almost 2 years. So am late to the discussion.

FWIW, Vander himself says that Magma is not prog. Obviously, it gets lumped in there since it demonstrates some of the tropes of the realm- long songs, technical virtuosity. But it stands alone as a form of music. in my opinion. It melds classical music, notably Orff and Stravinsky, with a bit of fusion (though not as much as one would think, since solos are not part of the Magma world very much), some gospel, and a lot of heavy rhythm. It is unique. Vander writes compositions that modulate and turn inward and around itself, constantly changin the way music is presented. And never played the same way twice.
IMG_3405.jpg

[Kcrimso]

I've been away for the past 9 days visiting my kids and grandkids after not seeing them for almost 2 years. So am late to the discussion.

FWIW, Vander himself says that Magma is not prog. Obviously, it gets lumped in there since it demonstrates some of the tropes of the realm- long songs, technical virtuosity. But it stands alone as a form of music. in my opinion. It melds classical music, notably Orff and Stravinsky, with a bit of fusion (though not as much as one would think, since solos are not part of the Magma world very much), some gospel, and a lot of heavy rhythm. It is unique. Vander writes compositions that modulate and turn inward and around itself, constantly changin the way music is presented. And never played the same way twice.
IMG_3405.jpg

Robert Fripp says that King Crimson is not prog. Do we have to agree with him?

[Cyberian Cat]

Robert Fripp says that King Crimson is not prog. Do we have to agree with him?

Being called "Prog Rock Pond Scum Set To Bum You Out" by a journo will do that to you !

[NogbadTheBad]

There is a whole group of prog musicians who don't want to be classified as prog, there's another bunch of prog musicians who love being classified as prog. I tend to listen to the former more than the later.